Not Tropeworthy: Franchise Actors

What if we had some sort of "Cast & Crew" namespace? I think making a list of actors (and writers/directors/producers) could be useful, perhaps as a subpage to go along with other subpages for a work article (i.e. like Cast/Star Wars).

Like Primis said, we let them stay because we didn't know they existed until now.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 25th 2019 at 6:58:17 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I've noticed them because I often add work pages to Creator pages. Nineteen different indexes for James Remar. Nineteen. They're valueless.

Casey Affleck is listed under a "View Askewniverse" index. What does that tell me? Nothing, because he already has Chasing Amy on his list of works.

---

---

You didn't create an actor's page, you put a list of actors in the namespace dedicated to providing accurate Real Life information by debunking common media stereotypes and explaining how to create media. Creating Creator.Jamie Smith or Creator.Irene Kane would be creating an actor page. PLEASE make those pages, we want those pages.

---

You put those two on the same page, and yet you can't see a connection between them. An argument against the page existing.

---

---

Consensus occurs from discussion (what we are doing now) and from crowners (what we might use in a few days).

---

Writers, Directors, and Producers should be listed in the description (along with the actors for the main characters). On the Characters subpage we should have a short description of each character that is prominent enough to display three characterization tropes. There's no reason why we can't list the actors for that character there.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

If you guys don't want to make a Characters page for whatever reason, this also seems like information that might be worthy of a Trivia subpage (i.e. a list of everyone that appeared in a franchise/work, with wicks to all the creator pages).

I agree that things like the Complete Monster thread can have sort of a barrier to entry, and I think it's kind of a sad aspect of the culture that it can be hard for new people to get into the TVT culture sometimes. That said, Works' Pages Are a Free Launch, and there shouldn't be much stopping you from creating works pages otherwise.

Largely agree with what's been said about these pages being a misuse of the Useful Notes namespace and potentially a duplicate of other content.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

Can I just say that I take it as a personal insult when someone describes something I've put a lot of effort into as "valueless". If these indexes are deleted, I might just abandon TV Tropes altogether. After all, what's the point of contributing to it if what I do is just going to be deleted because a handful of people suddenly decide that it doesn't "fit" with some vaguely defined idea of what TV Tropes is?

No personal insult was intended. But I am speaking candidly on a forum where people are supposed to speak candidly. These indexes contain no useful information. TV Tropes is not in the business of making lists of people who have been on Dallas.

I'm sorry we're upsetting you, but you have to understand. The mission of Tv Tropes is to document meaningful patterns in storytelling, some audience reactions, and to help creators better understand and write about real subjects (and, of course, to have a little fun when it doesn't get in the way of the wiki itself). Making a list of people who've been in specific movies just doesn't fit any of that criteria. Making a work page or creator page however does fit that criteria, and nobody would stop you from doing that.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Actually it does fit one of those criteria, which is having a little fun that doesn't get in the way of the wiki itself. And no, I don't see how creating these indexes "gets in the way" of TV Tropes at all. I see it as expanding TV Tropes and I can't help it if your definition of the wiki is different from mine. So you can argue all you want but you're not going to convince me that these indexes don't belong on the site.

By the way, here's another index I made: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/BritishHonours. Would you like to destroy that as well while you're at it?

This isn't a personal attack on you. Sure, these indexes don't hurt the wiki but they don't help the wiki either, and by fun I meant things like the Just for Fun pages- jokes, kept separate from the main wiki.

If you feel like the wiki should expand to cover these things, well, fine... but you need consensus before you can go ahead and do things like that.

Edit: And it's not just our viewpoint. Take a look at, say, The Goals of TV Tropes. Our primary mission is to document tropes, all else is secondary, and these indexes don't have a place- at least, not currently.

On top of that... you shouldn't be making Indexes in the Useful Notes namespace, anyway.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 25th 2019 at 9:26:52 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

This also seems like a good idea. Trivia pages could have folders/sections just to list the cast and crew members.

I wouldn't be opposed to that, if for some reason doing it on a character page is out of the question.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Yes.

They shouldn't be indexes, though.

Not a personal attack eh? Well you could've fooled me.

In all seriousness though, if you're leaving the possibility open that TV Tropes might eventually allow for indexes like these then it makes no sense to delete them because they'd have to be rebuilt from scratch.

It isn't. This is a place to talk about the wiki and decide what the wiki needs and what it doesn't. A list of everyone who has ever appeared in a DC Comics product is not useful.

Your notes on British Honors are even less useful because that index has nothing at all to do with storytelling and tropes.

And if we never do accept things like these? Then what?

My point is, you're trying to make this decision for expanding the scope of the wiki without consensus. That's how we work here. I still personally don't see any use for these pages that an actual work or character page wouldn't have with the added bonus of having far more information and actual tropes. Why not just make a work and character page?

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 25th 2019 at 9:49:16 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Because the purpose of the indexes is to list everyone who appeared in a given franchise who has their own TV Tropes page. It would be impractical to make a character page for every guest character from, say, The Simpsons, Law & Order, Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc.

Neither do the indexes for Academy Award winners, Emmy winners, Tony winners, etc. and yet they're allowed. I don't see British honors as being all that different.

Edited by LarryMullen on Jan 25th 2019 at 9:58:07 AM

Impractical... sure, but there's No Such Thing as Notability. Even the most minor characters can be troped if they exist and have tropes to list.

Edit: Misread the post, so I changed my response a bit.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 25th 2019 at 9:58:58 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

But let's be honest here. Does anyone really care enough about very minor characters to create pages for them? At least with these indexes we're talking about actors who are real people and people cared enough about them to create TV Tropes pages for them.

Just because nobody cares to doesn't mean nobody will ever care too and the fact remains that regardless of whether or not someone will is less important than that they can. If the same information on the indexes can be conveyed through a different, existent way, with the only barrier to doing so being interest... We don't need the indexes.

Either way, they should be cut just for being in the wrong namespace, regardless of if we want to keep or toss the actual information. (We can move them to the proper namespace IF the consensus is to keep)

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Move them to the proper namespace then. Don't just cut them because you think they're useless when plenty of tropers disagree.

Who are these "plenty of tropers" exactly? You and Erin are the onlt people I've seen, both here and on ATT, defending the existence of these indexes.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 25th 2019 at 10:18:12 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

The ones who continually update the indexes when new information is released and/or new creator pages pop up. I'm hardly the only one. Just because they aren't contributing to this discussion doesn't mean they don't exist. You can ignore them if you want but cutting the indexes will result in a lot of unhappy tropers.

There actually is a character page for one-shot characters from the Simpsons...

And no, I don't think that's worthy of a page either.

The character pages for Sonic the Hedgehog also have a lot superfluous entries. I started a Wiki Talk thread for those, too, and actually got approval to cut them, I just haven't got around to it yet.

Edited by Primis on Jan 25th 2019 at 8:28:10 AM