Ambiguous Name: Face Death With Dignity

That what I'm asking. It seems one can be. May be it is better to define Face Death with Dignity in the "broad" version (Option 1) as "calmly / stoically accepting death as inevitable" (and Defiant to the End is in substance "refusing to agree that the death is just" or something)? Another example of both - Marvel's Killmonger.

The previous "narrow" version of Face Death with Dignity (Option 2) was "calmly / stoically accepting death as both inevitable and just" (as a punishment one deserves).

But then how does Face Death with Dignity correlate exactly with Obi-Wan Moment? Is Obi-Wan Moment "calmly / stoically accepting death as inevitable, even when injust?" (so a subtrope of Face Death with Dignity in its "broad" version + a possible inversion of Defiant to the End)? Then those examples from Deep Impact, Rogue One or Melancholia are Obi-Wan Moments.

Current description of that last trope says "or find one last moment of peace," so meaningful last words seem not mandatory.

And this Big Bad's death in Batman Begins is listed as an example of Obi-Wan Moment - he just closes his eyes, but he does not feel any regret or remorse. Is it a wrong example? There are more examples like that on that trope page.

Don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud :)

PS Not a fan of "villain" and "hero" tropes. In works with Grey-and-Grey Morality and with characters who cross the line between an Anti-Hero and an Anti-Villain you never know how to apply them.. I'd rather define tropes without referring to villains and heroes if possible, but that's just me.

Edited by Asherinka on Nov 4th 2018 at 11:19:09 AM

Looks like we have a definition problem on a larger scale when it comes to dignified death scenes in fiction. One could read Obi-Wan Moment as a subtrope of Face Death with Dignity reserved for veteran/mentor figures connecting with their follower(s) in the moment of immanent death. I don't like how the description pulls villains into this.

My attempt at a categorization as a starting point for further discussion:

• Face Death with Dignity: A character has come to terms with immanent or looming death and serenely accepts it coming
  • Examples: Deep Impact, Rogue One, Melancholia, Batman Begins, Equilibrium
• Obi-Wan Moment: Subtrope of Face Death with Dignity for veteran/mentor figures
  • Examples: A New Hope, X-Men: The Last Stand, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
• Defiant to the End: A character facing death by the opposition acts provocative as a display of their pride or fearlessness of death
  • Examples: Equilibrium

Edited by eroock on Nov 4th 2018 at 4:16:53 PM

I mostly agree but I'm not sure Obi-Wan Moment is for mentor figures only. What about Dr. Strange in Infinity War who knows that he is about to be annihilated and calmly says "there was no other way" before turning into dust? He is not a mentor.

There will be very few examples left on that page if the trope is restricted to mentor figures only. Should the rest be moved to Face Death with Dignity? Do we even need such a narrow trope then, and wouldn't it be better to merge Obi-Wan Moment with Face Death with Dignity?

Also what about that Killmonger's death I mentioned above? He is the defeated and badly wounded Big Bad in Black Panther. The hero grants him his last wish to see the sunset over his country. Killmonger knows he can be healed but he will be imprisoned for life, so he pulls out the weapon and bleeds to death while watching the sunset, while comparing himself to slaves who jumped from ships to escape bondage. He also shows no remorse.

I'd say it is Face Death with Dignity+Defiant to the End as well.

Edited by Asherinka on Nov 4th 2018 at 4:52:33 PM

Not seeing enough defiance in that scene. Looks like Face Death with Dignity + I Die Free.

Fair enough. And what about all sorts of Last Stands? I think Face Death with Dignity needs the word "calmly" somewhere in the definition. Otherwise they fit in as well.

A character has come to terms with immanent or looming death and calmly reacts to it.

Or even "serenly" rather than "calmly".

To give some more MCU examples, I believe this one in Thor: The Dark World is Defiant to the End but not Face Death with Dignity (unless we make the definition very broad). She is protecting another person and a MacGuffin at the cost of her life, and is killed after refusing to reveal their location.

Or this one, in Westworld. He is the creator who makes a Heroic Sacrifice to give the Ridiculously Human Robots he created time to escape, and he reads himself the provocative speech he wrote for one of them before he dies.

Without that "calm" or "serene" word both fit the definition you proposed above.

Edited by Asherinka on Nov 4th 2018 at 5:28:33 PM

I agree and made the adjustment in my post above. Not sure how to resolve the blurring with Obi-Wan Moment. I vaguely remember this trope being discussed here before but it's hard to find the thread with a broken search engine.

Some old threads:

• https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1308562613053620100
• https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13631172740A56193300
• https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13590429520A15060100&page=7#comment-157

It seems one was intended to be a villainous version (with the villain agreeing that they deserved death), the other heroic version. But both had a Non-Indicative Name and confusing descriptions (Obi-Wan Moment has this in the description: "May also happen with villains in a Dissonant Serenity situation.", and Defiant to the End has this: "Another variant of this trope of a more messianic bent is when a character is offered a Sadistic Choice to save the hostage and MacGuffin if she trades her life for it.") so eventually we got what we have now.

I believe two things can be done:

• Either merge them (and probably rename them into something like Face Death With Serenity for it to be indicative) — basically, a variant of your former Option 1
• Or keep them as is but clarify the descriptions and clean up the pages by moving examples between them — a variant of your former Option 2. In this case it is unclear what to do with my Batman Begins and Black Panther (Killmonger) examples, Mrbda241's Darkseid example, the example it all started from etc. Basically, all situations when villains serenely accept death while continuing to think they did not deserve it.

PS This is exactly why I dislike hero and villain-specific tropes xD

Edited by Asherinka on Nov 4th 2018 at 6:32:19 PM

In each of the first two thread linked above, a user pointed out the possibility to distinguish Face Death with Dignity from Obi-Wan Moment by the moment they occur. FDWD applies when there is still a chance to turn things around but the character refuses to do so, OWM is when things are pretty much south and all there is left to do is give the beloved ones a last sign that things will be well, like a preponed Died Happily Ever After.

I'd like to argue that the description/definition for Obi-Wan Moment right now is terrible. Based on the claim about the name coming from a director's commentary track, OWM should be "when The Mentor dies, leaving their student to continue their legacy" and the Face Death with Dignity elements are completely misplaced.

The death of The Mentor is a pivitol point in the story; the student generally cannot learn anything else from them, so they're limited to skills they've already demonstrated until they can invent new ones. Episode VIII had the deaths of both Snoke and Luke, one died by their student and the other died protecting their student. Mentor 1 was taken by surprise while Mentor 2 died fighting. It wasn't an unusually calm moment for either of them.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Dec 5th 2018 at 6:10:06 AM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

^ Uhmm, spoilers?

Edited by eroock on Dec 5th 2018 at 12:54:35 PM

^^ How to separate that from Mentor Occupational Hazard then?

Edited by naturalironist on Dec 5th 2018 at 7:23:05 AM

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

Ah; didn't realize we had a page for it already.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Crowner? I still support FDWD not being villain-specific.

Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!

How about we first compile the related tropes?

• Obi-Wan Moment: the general moment of "someone being serene before death"
• Face Death with Dignity: Subtrope of the above, specific for "before being killed/executed"; can be done by the hero or the villain
• Go Out with a Smile: Another way an Obi-Wan Moment is expressed
• Die Laughing: Exaggerated version of the above
• Not Afraid to Die: a personality trope, where someone has it in their mind that they aren't afraid to die.
• Defiant to the End: Sister trope to FDWD, where they instead face their would/be executor/killer with mean face and harsh words, meant to show that "I might die at your hand but I can still steal your dignity". Choice of words and action matters here.
• Last Stand: Sister trope to DTTE, but more action-y ("I'll fight/act with my fullest to my bitter end")

I don't know where Do Not Go Gentle fall, though. Looks too similar to Last Stand and The Last Dance (which is probably for another thread...)

• Don't Fear the Reaper: Not too related; it's about (more benign) depictions of Grim Reaper and related beings

Edited by 4tell0life4 on Jan 11th 2019 at 4:56:22 AM

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza

^ Agreeing, except for:

• Obi-Wan Moment: This trope involves a second character to which the dying one is asserting "everything's gonna be alright".

I also don't see the difference between Do Not Go Gentle and Last Stand. LS describes DNGG as "for individuals", but it never claims to be for entire parties itself. The Last Dance is a premeditated last mission someone commits themselves to.

You literally stopped at that part. The page continues what you said with "Sometimes they just smile at their surviving companion, fire off one last one-liner at their killer, say that It Has Been an Honor, or admit that This Is Gonna Suck. Usually goes on into Peaceful in Death, if the body does not dissolve or otherwise be destroyed."

That's why I conclude that it's "serenity before death in general".

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza

Sorry for the confusion. I was getting ahead here, trying to find a better contrast between OWM and FDWD. As per your definition, mentor figures who are killed serenely are Face Death with Dignity (X-Men: The Last Stand, A New Hope) and those who are dying serenely otherwise are Obi-Wan Moment (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan) which is not a distinction I would make. IMO, the one element to elevate a situation from FDWD to OWM should be the connection between a dying veteran/mentor figure and his disciple/companions.

I'd get rid of the "dying veteran/mentor figure" alltogether TBH, and just keep the "serene" part. Most current examples have nothing to do with mentor figures.

Exactly what I'm trying to say.

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza

So what would be the definition of OWM that would (a) cover X-Men: The Last Stand and A New Hope and (b) be distinctive enough to be kept separately from FDWD?

I don't think OWM is distinctive enough to have a page. I think we should have it redirect to Mentor Occupational Hazard.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Extending the clock again.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Clock is up with no progress; closing.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman