Cowboy Bebop

I can hardly blame Watanabi for disliking Netflix Bebop. It's not even the changes they made to the show, but the fundamental fact that the show just wasn't any good on it's own. His vision helped make what Cowboy Bebop is to a lot of us after all

Edited by VeryMelon on Jan 27th 2023 at 12:16:07 PM

Corridor Digital recently went over the stylistic designs in anime and why it is so often not done right. Most of it comes down to the efficiency of storytelling where every shot feels calculated in direction and editing, rather than how movies film a lot of coverage (most of it singles on the actors faces for reaction shots) and decide afterwards how it comes together. The other part is showing actors faces at the expense of the quality of the image and body language. They also point out Bullet Time is used to sell punches and other big moments rather than just dodge things.

I get the feeling from the Netflix show that they wanted to emulate the style of the anime but didn't have the time or budget to do it right, making comparable scenes three times longer and conversely with far less energy. That's without getting into the story bloat.

I will admit I admire the attempt to do the Green Bird scene well, but I'm also in the extreme minority who think that the original is the singularly stupidest thing in the anime.

"See that too. That's the only Arc Welding this series really needed. "

I dont think even arc welding is the proper trope since the original series barely even have an arc: Vicious show in episode 5, episode 12 and 13 and them near the end and.....that much if, Julia matter as background until she come back and then dies later.

Is impactfull but in term of arcs it would be near a waste on is own.

If there's one thing in the show I really dislike it's Fad's Adaptational Jerkass. It felt like a weird change that ruined the character, Wich is a shame as the actor was giving a solid performance. He probably could have done Fad's Alas, Poor Villain well.

The moment I realized the show wasn't really matching the right vibe of the anime was when Faye was handcuffed in the bathroom of the Bebop. The anime showed shortly after Spike and Jet closed the door she coolly retrieves a hairpin and next shot she had escaped in her ship. The show had her retrieve a hairpin and exaggerate an "Ah Ha!" reaction, then she is able to hack the Bebops computer because Jet has the password on a sticky note. The presentation in the anime was absolutely clear that Faye was playing up a role and had a plan to escape when they weren't watching, while the show lacks that type of subtext in favor of exactly what is shown. Similarly, the "password on a sticky note next to the computer" is a funny joke if you want computer owner to look like a moron, and I would have hoped the show wouldn't disrespect Jet like that. There is a difference between being outplayed and being stupid.

I can officially say after seeing HBO's The Last of Us.

There is a way to adapt a work and there is a way to not adapt a work.

there is a major differences between adapting an anime and adapting a video game,Last of Us's stylization is very realistic and Cebop is a cartoon

I haven't seen the Netflix adaption, but for me the issue is that Bebop is...maybe realistic is too strong a word. Its aesthetics are relatively...grounded, though, and a lot of it is things I've seen before in live action.

Cowboy Bebop has long been noted as having very strong cinematic stylings, it uses animation to free up the budget to provide great imagery but it doesn't sacrifice reality for the emotion (ie, it avoids things like the Face Fault and other exaggerations). It's not impossible to replicate Cowboy Bebops' style in live action, you just need to have a director with an eye towards the same sensibilities of blending action, music and creative editing. Edgar Wright would have been perfect for a Cowboy Bebop movie.

the last of us feel at times as a better take of walking dead so is kinda easier to adapt in that way.

Bepop indeed is stylish and more often tend to be...let said dry since the author confirm it dosent like when a series want you to feel something by abusing music in general, for what I remenber a lot of people feel the show try to ape wheedon or the snarky style of other series when it should try to go for a more tarantinesque aproach

Idk, I think Edgar Wright is a bit to hectic for Cowboy Bebop.

Agreed. I love Edgar Wright, I love Cowboy Bebop, but I don't think they'd go particularly well together.

Frankly, comparing adapting The Last of Us and Cowboy Bebop is like comparing apples and submarines.

Edited by Larkmarn on Feb 22nd 2023 at 12:37:25 PM

Wrights personal style tends to be more manic but his sensibilities are more flexible than that. Last Night in Soho is when he tackles supernatural horror instead of comedy. I can easily see parallels between that tone and "Pierrot le Fou."

They are both adaptions of a serialized work with strong narrative themes/pathos.

The difference in medium matters little. They are not an apple and a submarine. There are factors to adapting an anime like Bebop like stylistic differences, yes, but using that as the only source of comparison is superficial. They both have narrative factors relevant to how we perceive adaptions.

• TLOU is an adaption that easily represents the work its translating and changes elements of the original to its benefit. People like it. Its a valid interpretation of the original that still feels like the original and not some bastardization even though aspects of it are changed. The writers get the characters and the setting they live in.
• Cowboy Bebop is not. Its largely different and changes elements nonsensically. People hated it. Its not impossible to adapt - anime like Parasyte, Another, Death Note, plenty can and have been translated to live-action and received more praise than Bebop has. If anything Bebop's lack of fantasy and demand for heavy sci-fi elements/alien creatures/crazy anime attacks should have made it easier to produce than say Fullmetal Alchemist, Ruroni Kenshin, Attack on Titan, Bleach, or Jojo. Failed visual spectacle and stylistic touches can be easily forgiven if there's faithful narrative substance for a lot of anime fans. Bebop is pretty much a love letter to John Woo films and westerns.

There's a fairly simple contrast between the two in how much common sense went into taking two underdeveloped characters and fitting them into the world vs Bebop giving a lead character a largely different personality and a sex scene they didn't have. Funny enough TLOU also gave a character a sex scene, but it fit a lot better in the episode's plot.

The Last of Us is simply a better adaption than Bebop is.

And the worst part is adaptions aren't hard. They are literally working off a blueprint of a successful work with a built-in audience of nerds who already love that work, and would pay to see it in live-action. Look at how hype Bebop was when the trailers came out and everyone heard the Opening Theme. They only go wrong because most people directing them think fans will enjoy an altered version of the original. You have a built-in audience so long as you copy a character design correctly or even in Broad Strokes. Look at Marvel films.

Simple fixes to Bebop?

• No Pierrot Le Fou being connected to Vicious / whole point of this episode was Spike was in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was not a convoluted plot of his personal nemesis to get rid of him. Spike was willing to put his life on the line for a meaningless conflict, against a dark reflection of himself, a skilled and silly hitman character scarred by his past.
• No random crime boss who likes to eat bull testicles who didn't exist at all in the original
• No Vicious being an edgy manchild with a bad temper, he was a much colder character with a calmer personality
• No changing Gren's entire look and making him look and act more vivaciously
• No having Julia suddenly take over the syndicate and betray Spike
• No Faye deciding to be into girls now just because
• Just scrap Black Dog Serenade's adaption there's no saving it - Jet was not getting cuckolded by his former partner
• No introducing Edward at the tail end of where the anime's plot naturally ended
• No over the top, comedic casino scene ripped from the movie that completely misrepresents Spike as a reckless kung fu guy who makes messes that Jet has to clean up

Guarantee you if any of these were removed the show would've been better received despite anime being a lot harder to make look "right."

Edited by FOFD on Feb 23rd 2023 at 4:48:39 AM

Spike was willing to put his life on the line for a meaningless conflict, against a dark reflection of himself, a skilled and silly hitman character scarred by his past.

I never even thought of that aspect of the episode. Huh.

The underlying theme surrounding Spike in the anime is that he doesn't consider himself to have any future, so is largely unafraid of death. Facing Tongpu for no good reason, the casual way he accepts he is about to burn up in re-entry, even Faye's package where Jet talks of scanning it for explosives and Spike just rips it open. The finale showed that any future he thought he had was with Julia; with her dead he knew there was only one course of action.

The Netflix show would have been passable if they simply removed the Syndicate Myth Arc. Giving Vicious and Julia an entire B story every episode ruined the pacing because the myth arc and the episodic story were too divorced from each other to make you care.

-nod-

The actors were all fine picks, I will say that

and I feel silly but thinking about it, Le Fou was petrified of cats, and Spike relates to Jet in the final episode that (Spike) hates cats and always hated them.

given how cats are spiritually linked with death and in some cultures the afterlife I don't blame him

"No Vicious being an edgy manchild with a bad temper, he was a much colder character with a calmer personality "

.....Calmer is not the work I will said, Vicious was really.....well vicious about what he does.

"Giving Vicious and Julia an entire B story every episode ruined the pacing because the myth arc and the episodic story were too divorced from each other to make you care."

I will said cowboy dosent really have an "arc" of sorts, vicious show up in episode 5, 12-13 and then the end and that it. Julia is worst since it haunt spike only to die in the end after showing alive.

There is a sort of thing surronding him but the way the show is format is....odd

In pretty sure Thats the point. Cowboy bebop is meant to be legitimately episodic.

Even Vicious and Julia in,the original aren't meant as characters but phantoms if you will of the past. More a metaphor that ultimately you can't outrun it.

Sadly that made them interesting as wet cardboard in the original show. I can understand why it was decided to spice them up and expand on them in this show, even if it wasn’t the best.

I liked them being in Broad Strokes. Show, Don't Tell when Spike's reaction to being called "viscious" was to viciously punch a dent into a giant metal boiler.

As a person who has always thought the Spike's backstory stuff was the weakest part of the original, I also appreciated the attempt to make more of the characters.

They weren't meant to be those kind of characters as that wasn't their function, and Bebop was never the kind of story that centered on that kind of plot for most of its runtime. You'd have to actually make the series about the syndicate from top to bottom instead of what the show attempted to do.