Dated vs. Timeless - where's the line?

Often, when I watch people like the Nostalgia Critic, I see them mentioning that certain things cause movies and stuff to become dated, and they make it very clear that in order for something to be good, it has to be timeless.

The question is: what constitutes something as timeless or dated? Where's the line? Is making popculture references enough to make something dated, and you should avoid doing that altogether? I would really appreciate some kind of answer on this subject.

While having pop culture references isn't an automatic out, it very well might be if getting those references is crucial to properly enjoying the scene. Other things that might make something dated are relying on some theory that later gets discarded as the very base of the world you build in your story (imagine a supposedly realistic play relying on Sun orbiting around Earth, for example), or being set in "near future" and having horribly inaccurate technological levels and not actually being a parody. But really, the easiest way would be to ask yourself "if someone took this thing in 10, 50, 100 years, would they be able to read/watch/play it without any issues or requiring them to rummage through archives?" and treat it as very likely to get dated if you can't answer it "yes".

And for something to be "timeless", it simply has to lack stuff that would make it "dated".

Ah, that clears things up a lot, thank you. :)

This leads me to the next question: if, say, the story revolved around internet memes as characters, could it possibly avoid becoming dated if:

• It was explained what memes are and what are their backstories
• There was more to the memes than just "they're memes, lol"?

Or is there more to it than that?

edited 24th Jun '16 11:53:23 AM by ZuTheSkunk

A work can be both dated and timeless. A work dates itself by being an obvious product of its time period. Like, say, with '80s Hair. A work is timeless if it remains relevant. Like it was an allegory of WWII, but the message is pertinent to modern wars as well.

Obviously, anything that dates a work, clearly establishes a time of creation, has a chance of rendering it irrelevant in later years. A good example is with stereotypes and social change. If your stereotypes have been discarded in a future culture, people looking back on your work are going to see a horrible clicheed and biased opinion piece. They won't be able to take a lesson out of it.

Comedy programs like The Daily Show are forced to date themselves, as they rely on topical humour.

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Any concept explained in your work is one that won't require reference to external sources. This is good beyond allowing your work to be more timeless.

As was877 has noted, technically you could do it (it's just that my and their definition of "dated" seem to be a bit different, hence them saying that it's possible and me that not really even though we mean the same thing or close to it). You wouldn't completely avoid it becoming dated because it would still be clear that it's stuff from another time period, but it would definitely not be "dated" in a way that makes it majorly less enjoyable as time goes if you did that. So yeah, if you have anything that relies on stuff from a given time period in any way, do explain it in some way even if only superficially, that does make the difference.

Something can be good and dated. Even the Nostalgia Critic has said so. You just have to go all the way with it. Instead of dropping lines that are from now you can make your characters relevant to what's going on like in the Freaky Friday remake.

What about being purposefully dated? Like to emphasize a certain character trait.

I was writing a near-future story where a young girl whose basically been kept captive most of her childhood is released into what to her seems like a very alien and strange world. A friend shows her a little movie called Terminator 2: Judgement Day and she falls in love with the film to the point where she quotes it often (partially to be annoying and partially to appear "badass").

Obviously most other characters are either oblivious to the reference since it's on old if famous movie, others find it amusing while others find it annoying. I can imagine the readers also falling into one of three groups.

One or two twists in a story is fine, Shyamlan-esque even. But please don't turn the poor thing into a Twizzler!

I'm fairly certain that if you date it on purpose then it is not dated to the time period you are in and thus you are already providing an explanation for the readers/viewers. Thus, it won't get "dated" as in "getting old and moldy as time passes", but rather will simply have it as a part of its style. So if you can play it well then I think having it dated on purpose is fine.

I agree. That sounds like a description of a Period Piece. Which is a work designed to capture the essence of a time period already historical.

I think that this depends somewhat on what one considers to be "good" in a work.

Consider a work that speaks strongly to a specific issue—perhaps even one that inspires social change. Presuming that the issue passes in time, is that work bad?

Or a "popcorn" work, designed to appeal to transient audience preferences and provide ephemeral entertainment—is that bad?

For some people, yes, I imagine that it is so (and fair enough)—but I'm not convinced that this perspective is universal.

My Games & Writing

If it inspired a huge social movement that leaves a lasting positive impact on the world, such as the abolishment of slavery or apartheid, it can become timeless. Would quote examples if I knew any specific ones.

Most likely to become dated, especially if the work runs on the dated technology that sold it in its days ("people thought this was good graphics?") and equally dated values ("people thought Black Face was funny?")

edited 2nd Jul '16 5:31:16 PM by hellomoto

I wasn't saying that either would be timeless; rather, I'm suggesting that not being timeless doesn't necessarily make a work bad, depending on what one values—that being "dated" isn't necessarily synonymous with being "bad".

Is ephemeral entertainment—giving enjoyment to its audience—worthless? Is inspiring social change or informing about social issues worthless if the work subsequently becomes irrelevant, the desired social change having been effected?

My Games & Writing

To take this a bit too literally, the Transformer franchise is a huge blockbuster...

Far from it, as I stated . In fact, it becomes timeless and full of worth when the social change is effected. After all, a significant part of society must see value in that social change before it's effected. The story will be used to tell future generations "in the past, we beat up women and thought it was right! This is how we learned our lesson".

Say what you like about those movies—and I don't think terribly highly of them—if people enjoyed watching them, does that itself have no worth?

Fair enough—in which case that was a poor example on my part. ^^;

edited 4th Jul '16 10:53:25 AM by ArsThaumaturgis

My Games & Writing

Well, some people would say it does not. But then again, it is a poor critic who cannot remember that not having worth as a piece of art (due to lack of novelty stuff, for example) does not equal having no worth as something for enjoyment (because, you know, the subjective value of entertainment).

edited 20th Jul '16 7:35:36 PM by Kazeto

And vice-versa, to some degree: A work can be impeccably crafted and succeed at exactly what it is trying to do, and yet be no fun at all. Joseph Heller's novel Something Happened and Gaspar Noé's film Irréversible are often cited as such.

But to the topic at hand: A work can be effective because it encapsulates a period or an aesthetic that would date a less timely work, or may rely on a "dated" situation but continue to resonate through its emotional content and structure; and likewise, a work can be timeless in its inadequacies, failing technically in ways obvious in nearly any period, and thus doom itself to irrelevance on its own merits. So the question initially posed rests on a false premise for me.

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.