Identity, gender and related topics

After a discussion in the LGBT Rights and America thread that among other things involved preferred pronouns, gender dysphoria, otherkin and furries, it was suggested that a new thread should be created for discussing those things.

Basically, this thread is intended for any discussions regarding personal identity, gender-based and otherwise. As always, follow the forum rules, be respectful and so on.

Personally, I view myself as the information that's currently stored in my brain. I don't identify as any particular gender, consider personal pronouns to be mostly arbitrary (or purely visual descriptions at most), and although I happen to like my current body, I ultimately just see it as a (potentially interchangeable) tool that isn't necessarily tied to me in any way.

What is called "species dysphoria" is not really something particularly seen as a clinically significant disorder. Or rather, neither APA nor the ICD seem to even bother lsiting it, studying it, or caring much for it. Not many studies regarding it and personally, I do not beliece it is too much of a biological, or otherwise actual phenomenon as it is just a cultural expression.

Namely, if otherkin were an actual thing, you'd also see people who thought of themselves as elves, or animals, or something in remote aboriginal tribes who had never heard of dragons, or elves or whatever.

It's just a cultural little obsession that's fostered by a socially inadequate space that is the internet.

There's also the fact that "species dysphoria" only ever seems to manifest as a very limited range of quote-unquote "cool" animals. Everyone who claims to experience it is always claiming to be a wolf, or a fox, or a dragon.

No-one ever claims to be a chicken, or a nematode worm.

edited 11th Dec '15 9:23:23 AM by Deadbeatloser22

Otherkin have a long history on the internet.

O. Scribner, “Otherkin timeline: The recent history of elfin, fae, and animal people, v. 2.0,” The Art and Writing of O. Scribner. 8 September 2012. Web. 11 December 2015. <http://orion.kitsunet.net/nonfic.html>

edited 11th Dec '15 9:26:46 AM by Sixthhokage1

Why does it matter if the origin of the dysphoria is biological or social/cultural? That's the genetic fallacy. Biology isn't anymore "true" or "real" than culture.

The treatment, of course. Same way you need to know if your patient is being afflcited by a parasite, a virus, a bacteria, or a fungoid.

Same way we look at and know of sexism and know mysoginists are wrong, but we cannot treat them despite knowing so, because the problem is cultural rather than biological, so the approach to them is diferent.

In this case, since the "disorder" belongs to an exclusive group of an exclusive "vulnerable" group with a harmless non threathening "disorder" it is safe to cathegorize it as "Meh" and to keep it relegated to personal problems rather than dedicate thousands of studies, research and time on it.

As opposed to other gender disorder stuff which being a very biological thing also breeds a large subset of its own freakin problems that we cannot ignore.

Otherkin is, in my opinion, an offshoot of the Transtrender. People who do not suffer from gender dysphoria, yet want to be or appear to be trans because they think it's cool to be, to "stick it to the man" or to simply stand out.

As as much as Transtrenders are a problem because they make being trans seem like a choice, Otherkin are a whole different problem. Now while generally I have the ideology of "each to their own", these kinds of people I've found to be very harmful to the trans community as it can illegitimise the plight of trans people to the general public. Otherkin in particular are worse, since as hard as it is for many people to grasp gender dysphoria, species dysphoria might just sound like make-believe to them, especially with the people who claim to be mythological/fantasy creatures, extraterrestrial creatures, or even inanimate objects.

And of course the more I read about transtrender stuff the more I worry that's the category I fall into. >.<

Otherkin are harmful to the transgender people in the same way cooties are harmful to real diseases. You don't think cooties are a real disorder because the mere thought is ludicrous, and because the source is probably a child. And children don't know what the shit they are talking about.

Likewise, people who are talking about this being a threat to actual transgender people are probably CMWHTMTAD (Concerned Mothers Who Have Too Much Time And Dialup), tabloid news, and the extra gossipy aunt.

You can be trans without having dysphoria. And Lucama, I posted an excerpt above from a hundred page PDF with cited sources documenting the history of otherkin from 1972 to 2011. Your hypothesis is incorrect.

I was expecting less bashing, but that was probably naive of me.

Now, I don't think that otherkin actually are elves, wolves or whatever in human bodies in any real way. Biologically it makes no sense, and the supernatural "explanations" don't exactly sound very convincing either, but being wrong is very different from lying. Insinuating that they must all be trolls who intentionally make fun of transpeople isn't helping anyone.

I imagine that you would just feel really weird and out of place without knowing why. "This isn't me, but I don't know what I should be instead."

Deadbeat, one way to really be sure. Talk to a therapist, they're there to help you work through stuff like that. Of course, they can't really tell you how to deal with it, one way or the other, only offer advice and suggestions.

And Aszur, I feel like the cooties analogy is a little wrong, because the general public is fairly ignorant about trans people, but they know cooties is made up while something like the flu is a real disease. People simply do not know enough about trans issues, because they're not talked about a lot, and therefore the public do not have an information basis to work off of to know that Transtrenders are simply taking what they want from being trans, the indentity, but none of the mental problems that come with it, depression due to dysphoria, etc. How is your average member of public to know the difference between a trans person and a Transtrender, without the basis of knowledge?

And I'm sorry if what I said sounded like bashing, but I feel like Otherkin and Transtrenders are groups which are not healthy, for the members of the groups, or the communities they borrow from.

I have a question here. Why is your average member of public to be educated on Transtenderism and otherkins, and by whom?

I'm going to be blunt: the very concept of "transtrenders" is a bunch of transphobic poppycock that is used by transmedicalists and other "transer than thou" people to police the identities of those they deem not trans enough and to accuse nonbinary people of being attention-seeking "special snowflakes".

The difficulty of dealing with "otherkin" and... similar nonsense is how all the arguments you're gonna use mirror those used against trans people. "It's all in your head", "made-up childish fantasy", "you just want to be special". So many LGBT heard all of those used against them that it's assumed those arguments are always wrong and thus every whim of confused children should always be respected and validated.

That's a fallacy, to say the least.

Aszur (and Sixthhokage with the later points), I don't think people need to be educated about Trandtrenders, they need to be educated about Trans people and what it means to be trans. Those who have gender dysphoria, those who truly do suffer from being born the wrong gender, rather than adopt a different gender as if it were a fashion statement, and then throw it away at a whim.

I am not trying to throw in the "more trans than x", as I myself am not trans. I am, however, part of the LGBT community and know many trans people, I have talked to them about their problems and struggles with living in the wrong body. But then you have cis people simply taking the identity of a trans person, and wearing it much as you or I would a shirt or jacket. Something they can take off when it inconveniences them.

Can someone explain to me exactly why the LGBT community hates the Otherkin? Because I don't see anything wrong with expressing what you think you are...Unless it was something morally/legally inexcusable.

I would guess that it's because the "otherkin" concept seems to mock or trivialize the real social and legal problems facing LGBT individuals. "I feel like I'm an elf, and I'm persecuted by society for it." "No, you are a human, now shut up." Whether that is a legitimate concern or not clearly depends on one's point of view.

Not having experienced any kind of body dysphoria, I cannot presume to look into someone's soul and know if they are acting out a fantasy or genuinely experiencing a psychological or medical condition. That is, ultimately, for medical professionals to decide.

However, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that it is medically impossible for someone to become an elf, or a dragon, or a dog for that matter. If you want to dress up in costumes or have cosmetic surgery and gather with like-minded individuals, okay. It's a free country. But please do not expect me to advocate for you to attain any kind of protected legal status like what the LGBT community is fighting for. That's pretty insulting.

edited 11th Dec '15 11:40:49 AM by Fighteer

For a lot of people the problem is, it devalues trans people in their (and mine) opinions. You have people who have a real, well documented issue, where they feel like they're born the wrong gender. They're still human, they simply do not feel right in the body they are in, I think the simplest, and best, way I've had it described by a friend is like this: "You order a specific flavour of ice cream, and you're given ice cream, but it's the wrong flavour. It's still ice cream, it's still there, but it's just not right." And as simple as that sounds, it really captures what some trans people feel like, they're alive, they're well, but something is off.

Now you have otherkin, who are born human, but they believe (or feel, though I don't personally think so) they are not human. They are wolves, or cats, or unicorns, or mermaids, or ET, or a chair. Now, not getting into the point about a combination of human DNA birthing a cat, the whole notion seems like just an overblown version of transgenderism, right? Perhaps a parody, or something? But some of these people are serious, or they are so adept at faking it that it falls under Poe's Law. And to some, that may be mocking trans people, that these otherkin are trying to make it seem like being trans is a choice. And without sufficient study and confirmation of species dysphoria, there were a few studies, but nothing concise and certainly nothing that would be sufficient proof to the scientific community that species dysphoria is a real mental state.

I myself am a nonbinary trans person who never experienced dysphoria until a few months ago. I also know many trans people and one thing the online trans community can generally actually agree on is that cis people need to stay in their lane and not speak for us, and certainly not over us.

Anyway, otherkin really have no particular connection to trans people, the main source of that conflation is troll blogs on Tumblr. You know the ones, where there's a huge conflicting string of identities they allegedly have in the bio, they overtag posts to get the most views possible to rustle more jimmies, and have little understanding of the social justice terminology they're using. These aren't people trying to "be cool" by faking transness, they're just making fun of us.

And once again, otherkin date back to 1972. For reference, the Stonewall Riots were in 1969.

edited 11th Dec '15 11:45:05 AM by Sixthhokage1

For reference, "elfin ear" surgery is considered risky to your health.

So this is an possible combination of a ambigous, unexplored mental disorder or mildly insane LAR Pers trolling society in a crusade to gain attention? I'd understand if it was the former, but I feel that the LGBT side has an stronger point when it comes to logic.

There's definitely people who claim to have the mental disorder, or as I said fake it well enough to not be able to tell the difference, and there's definitely trolls.

And it's not my place to say whether the disorder is real or not, but current medical science doesn't class it as such. There's not been enough study, and even less interest from psychologists. Plus, a lot of the community makes themselves sound more like they're suffering from other problems, such as severe social anxiety. It's not hard to find very convincing pieces online, through a quick google search. Though I will admit, it's hard to find an article that looks at those with an unbiased view, often being bash-pieces.

edited 11th Dec '15 12:04:56 PM by Lucama

If you feel like the personal thoughts and stupid opinions given absolutely no credence anywhere serious of a minor subset of people devalues your opinion, I honestly don't think the problem lies within those people or their opinions, but rather the value you are ascribing to them.

Aszur, perhaps you're right, perhaps we're just missing each other on a point there. I don't know, and honestly, I've said all I have to say on this debate. I'm gonna bow out now, because I will start repeating myself.