Jessica Jones

Yeah, Jessica makes bad decisions. That should be pretty obvious. She has bad PTSD, which she self-medicates with alcohol. Not the act of an emotionally-stable person. Should she be in therapy? Maybe. Probably. But being emotionally-unstable, she doesn't actually want to be in therapy. She did go - that's where she picked up the thing about remember street names - but she didn't feel she was getting anything out of it. At the very least, this show did acknowledge the existence of therapists. It's just that the characters ignore them, because a lot of people in the real world do it, too.

You're probably right that Jessica should be seeking help. But self-destructive behaviour makes it hard to seek help. That's kinda the whole point of self-destructive behaviour. But what's notable with this show is that it actually acknowledges that fact. There's a lot of fiction out there that lets characters be broken without really dwelling on it. So a character will drink a lot, and it never impairs their judgment, of if it does, it's treated as a one-off thing, and most of the time, the decisions they make are treated as being more or less the right ones. The characters in this show don't get that benefit.

Here, characters - including heroes - make bad decisions, not because they're stupid, but because their mental states don't allow them to make better decisions.

I was talking about the show with my brother the other day. We both agreed the show has some definite plotting issues. Too much padding. Kilgrave's third escape is really forced. The divorce subplot ends up taking up too much time only to be dropped too suddenly. Robyn took up too much time. They fucked-up a Chekhov's Gun moment, when Simpson threw the blue pills out the window, and then they don't show up again. The IGH subplot, while obviously meant to be setting up future stuff, didn't really click because there was so much shit already happening. The death of Clemmons was a little galling. The show had a shitload of death in general, to the point where it became hard to care when yet another character got killed. So many problems, from a plotting standpoint.

But damn if it isn't an awesome show. I actually enjoyed it more than Daredevil. Even the shit it does wrong with plotting - the divorce, for example - it does so well in the actual writing. The divorce was weak from a plotting standpoint, but it was written really well, and it did a great job tying into the larger theme of power and abuse. Jeri and Wendy both abused any power they had over each other to hurt each other (with poor Pam getting kinda fucked over).

So while the plotting wasn't great, the writing was excellent, and the performances were stellar. It's a damned good show.

It should be noted is that Jessica 1. did receive help and 2. relies on that help at several points throughout the series, but 3. gets mad at herself for having needed that help, interjecting swear words into her coping methods at several points.

Though Pam did choose to have an affair with a married woman (and later went all "STRIKE WENDY DOWN WITH ALL OF YOUR HATRED!"), so she's no saint either.

And don't forget that Jessica did seek help from Trish. In fact, Trish is pretty much the only person that Jessica is completely honest with throughout the show.

And her relationship with Trish is the least fucked up out of all of the relationships in the show, I'm pretty sure.

I really like their relationship.

The Handle I can't help but feel like your argument is that Nuro-a-typical people shouldn't be protagonists.

If anything I'd argue that having a woman with realistic PTSD (rather than token PTS) as the protagonist is a major reason why the show was so engaging. Her mistakes enriched the character.

edited 29th Nov '15 6:04:01 PM by Whowho

Jessica does learn to open up throughout the show. She hadn't spoken with Trish in... I think it was six months? prior to the first episode. Malcolm becomes her confidant and I am so glad his crisis of faith didn't break him. She's met a kindred spirit in Luke Cage. Even Claire may have become part of her circle. Claire and Jessica's interactions were a joy.

She's letting people in again.

Oh, for fuck's sake, man, don't go there.

Good for her.

Sorry if my take on your argument made you uncomfortable.

I don't take any issue with The Handle's opinion on the show. I read it all and it's pretty interesting to think about.

I personally never expected anything more that watching a cast of assholes be assholes to each other, so I never felt Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy. In fact I'm actually rather glad Jessica doesn't have her exact comic origin because getting rid of it fit my expectations better.

Oh, yeah, her sarcasm is fun. But unlike Tony Stark, that is not the extend of her jerkness. I was referring more to the bunch of shit she throws at people "for no reason" (like the appalling way she threats the support group).

The only part of Jessica's jerkishness that really grated on me were her interactions with Hogarth. In the early episodes, Jessica repeatedly comes to her with a problem, Hogarth explains the practical solution to it, and Jessica acts like an asshole about it. I mean, even more of an asshole than she is to other people.

While Hogarth eventually did something to earn such contempt, early on it seems like a case of Irrational Hatred.

It was a good show . Just finished today but God was it irritating as hell.

Jessica is kind of well.....stupid.

She never thinks to put in headphones in the first episode when she walks into Kilgrave's place. : |

The only time it's used is in episode 13 for Trish.

I did like DD more because there were more likeable people in the cast.

Everyone's an asshole in JJ who always make things worse except for Trish and Malcolm.

But I liked what JJ was trying to do a lot. It's very well-written. It just hands JJ the Idiot ball a tad too many times.

I dunno, man. I liked Daredevil fine but I feel like it relied a little heavily on stock characterizations. I found Jessica Jones a lot more compelling in the character department.

I think JJ did outstanding with the characters, but faltered a little bit on the plotting.

Daredevil is a way more thought out show, but had more trouble with creating compelling characters. And then went and killed off three of the four I liked the most. Thankfully at least Claire lived to turn up in a show more deserving of an awesome character like her.

Luke isn't an asshole either. The one time he gets angry at Jess she richly deserves it.

And everyone that is an asshole ends up suffering from it, so there is some aesop somewhere to be found.

@The Handle: I honestly just think that this show isn't made for you. It will always have a character with PTSD, and if Jess is ever cured to the point of becoming a well-adjusted individual, I am pretty sure it will be the grand finale of the story. That's just what JJ is about, there is nothing wrong not wanting to watch something like that or not finding it engaging. I didn't like watching Breaking Bad past season 1 because for me, at that point, the protagonist was a villain and there wasn't anything to discuss anymore - which may absolutely not be true for others viewers, I don't know.

edited 30th Nov '15 1:09:30 AM by Julep

Agreed. Daredevil had better plotting, Jessica Jones had better characters. And, I would argue, did better with themes. Daredevil had a little bit of a gentrification theme, and did a lot with questions of morality, ends justifying means, and stuff like that. And it was good, but it's the sort of thing that is explored pretty regularly as it is.

Jessica Jones' handling of themes of rape, abuse and power made for a show that was deeply uncomfortable in exactly the right ways.

Also, Daredevil went the standard dark'n'gritty route of the hero using torture, and it being effective as a means of extracting information. In Jessica Jones, the one time she used torture, it was pretty explicit that she was doing it for her own sake, not to get information, and it was also outright stated that any confessions gained that way would be inadmissable in court. Daredevil's torture scenes are uncomfortable because they glorify torture, to an extent. Jessica Jones' torture scene is uncomfortable because she's beating the shit out of a guy who can't fight back and that is fucked up and the show wants us to recognize that it is in no way anything even remotely resembling OK. It's a much more satisfying kind of discomfort.

Hell, Jessica even basically tortures Wendy to get her to sign the divorce papers, and it not only fails, it ends up backfiring spectacularly. So, yeah, Jessica Jones is anti-torture, while Daredevil feels like it has some pro-torture undertones.

Question: what's the difference between PTSD and a Freudian Excuse?

One is mental instability caused by actual traumatic experiences and the other is a complete lack of respect for people reacting differently to traumatic experiences from how you would react.

Really? How so?

Karkat, I was being facetious to make a point about Handle's problems with Jessica's response to her experience.

The ACTUAL difference is that one is a form of mental ailment brought on by traumatic experiences and the other is when people have a decent or reasonable reason for their behavior but it's difficult to excuse their actions for a variety of reasons.

Usually those reasons have to do with how the story presents things like the lucidity of the person being excused. What kind of crazy are they, did they adopt their actions because of their trauma led then to it or did they consciously choose to do wrong and simply cite past trauma as a reason even though the connection isn't really that strong?

Or, between the awfulness that happened in their lives who is more justified in their actions, Kilgrave or Jessica, and why?

Kilgrave was treated for a degenerative neuro ailment, but it was clearly how he was treated was very rough and traumatized him. Is he justified in using his abilities for selfish means, for refusing to see and understand the concepts or right and wrong? Or is his backstory just an excuse for poor behavior and he should know better?

Or is Jessica justified for shutting people out after blaming herself for her family's death? Is she justified for being rude and selfish and irrational and emotional when we know she was forced to do awful things against her will, be raped and commit murder? Or is it just an excuse to run around, be awful, and refuse to acknowledge consequences?

Thank you for rephrasing my general question in the specific ways it is posed in this show. As for your previous 'facetious' response, I'd say that it's based on presumptuous assumptions.

While whether or not "non-neurotypical" people should be held responsible for their behaviour when it hurts others beside themselves is something of an open debate in law and psychiatry, I don't think it's fair to require that they not be disliked for them. Regardless of why they are that way, someone who is hurtful, insulting, temperamental, demanding, ungrateful, immodest, mean, creepy, clingy, a liar, and so on, remains someone whom it is perfectly fair for people to want to avoid, and to feel hostile and resentful towards.

I find in moments of Jessica's destructiveness I putty her too much to hate her.

Its interesting because the show also toys with the notion of making Kilgrave pitiful. It makes a good argument that no child with his powers could have been supported, and did for a short time flirt with the idea that he was a victim himself. And the show does flirt with the desire to rehabilitate him.

But, Trish's mother is Never portrayed as someone to pitty. Given the premise of 'superpowered abuser' including a mundane abuser to avoid othering abusers was ingenious.

I liked that they had non-superpowered abusers, too, for that same reason. That was really clever on the writers' part.

I get the feeling that Jessica is going to be pissed at Daredevil when she finds out that he uses torture, given that she knows first hand what effect that kind of abuse has on a person.