Rustal all never cared about damaging Tekkadan. They used them, but that was to damage Maclys reputation. He decided to fully make them a target when they willingly aided a coup.
The one with edgy manchild issues towards Tekkadan was Idiok.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Rustal only cared about Tekkadan because they were allying themselves with McGillis, if they cut of ties with him before getting involved in open coup he wouldn't spare them another thought.
Buying into the "Kings of Mars" fairy tale and going way too far to make it happen is the reason for Tekkadan's downfall. It's tragic because it was so easily avoidable.
Brightness
Jupiterian Local
That's... odd, given that Right Stuf has been handling all the North American distribution of Gundam stuff for a few years. Wonder what the deal with that is.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
The weary crescent moon sets over a barren wasteland, giving way to the rising sun.
That WMG about Almeria and Ride establishing an anti-Gjallerhorn faction into which they recruit Akatsuki is something I consider too dark even for this series. What did Mikazuki die for, but for his son to be able to live in peace? Of course, Atra and Akatsuki are the missing piece of the puzzle that Julietta still hasn't figured out- that Mikazuki fought a battle he knew he couldn't win, so that his wife and son would survive.
Welp, just finished it. I thought the ending was okay. My main problem is that the way it tries to be overall positive feels a bit out of nowhere. I don't think the original Downer would have been better, but you never really got the impression Rustal would do something like this or that the old Gjahallorn having to be dissolved like that was a possibility.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
The foreshadowing is in his relationship with Julietta, his willingness to step outside the boundaries of law and tradition, and his speech about what he likes most about Gjallarhorn. Rustal is a supremely adaptive pragmatist who never lets mere hypocrisy slow him down if it will deliver the stability, prosperity, and security he wants for the solar system. That said, it is meant to be a bit jarring - IBO borrows a great deal from the rise and fall of Imperial Japan, and part of that is going 'hold on a sec, why isn't living under the people who nuked and then occupied us all that bad?'
What's precedent ever done for us?
Doin' stuff
I still think it was a stupid comparison for them to make because while it was presented that Tekkadan did everything they did to survive and every fight was them reacting to being attacked, what Imperial Japan did... wasn't anything like that. At all.
I could into it more but then I would probably be getting discoursey.
I do lots of stuff. The real question is am I any good at that stuff.
They stopped doing what they needed to survive by the end of the first season. Tekkadan in S2 was striving for greater and grander heights that put them at risk seeking something like being King of Mars. Which got them in deeper and deeper hole until they got themselves into a Coup de tat that failed spectacularly because they never realized "Muh Bael" Mcgillis was delusional.
Now that doesn't stop them from being sympathetic despite it.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 24th 2018 at 2:42:44 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
It's a stupid comparison because General Mac Arthur was never so callous as to send his own men on false-flag suicide missions. It's true that he had no qualms about using nuclear weapons, at least against military targets, but he would never intentionally fire on his own men (the concept of fallout was not understood when drawing up plans for Operation Downfall, so nobody realized that using nukes for shore bombardment would mean killing the invasion force with our own nukes).
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
The Dainsleifs are more a metaphor for air power in general than just nuclear weapons (although they do include a nuke metaphor as part of that), and while MacArthur never specifically used false flags, his downright grubby behaviour in the Philippines is probably where Rustal got a lot of his more negative traits from. In fact, getting your own guys bombed as part of a deliberate strategy is probably better than getting them bombed through your corruption and incompetence.
What's precedent ever done for us?
It's pretty sad to think that everything would've turned out alright if Tekkadan just didn't choose sides in Gjallerhorn internal conflict.
With Orga declaring that they'd become the kings of Mars immediately after they failed to keep a second Tekkaden branch afloat I'm not so sure.
My Megaman and MegaTen liveblogs
The Head of the Hydra
The issue is they chose the wrong side.
Rustal may be a genuine piece of human garbage but he’s not that stupid.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Jupiterian Local
Nor was McGillis delusional when he launched his coup attempt. He, as head of the Fareed family, had been quietly working to undermine the power and authority of his confirmed enemies (the Elion and Kujan families) while shoring up his relationship with his confirmed allies (the Issue and Bauduin families), and trying to sway the neutral parties (the remaining two families of the Seven Stars). When he learned that Gaelio had survived the events of season one, he had to act immediately, because Gaelio could reveal at any time that McGillis was secretly working to destroy the Seven Stars from within. So McGillis was forced to play his trump card — the Bael — early, before he'd finished laying the political foundations for his coup. Even so, using the Bael as a political tool wasn't entirely ineffective — it kept the neutral parties neutral even when Gaelio did go public with his accusations against McGillis, rather than them turning against McGillis entirely. That meant that he had a fighting chance to take out Rustal and Iok and seize control of Gjallarhorn, instead of just being buried under the weight of all of the other Seven Stars.
Pretty much the only reason he lost in the end is because in the climactic battle above Earth, he was unable to defeat Gaelio and Mika was unable to defeat Julietta in a timely manner, despite both McGillis and Mika being previously shown to be head-and-shoulders superior to Gaelio and Julietta in earlier fights. That's the main reason that I found the ending so unsatisfying — it felt like the antagonists suddenly gained Plot Armor for the finale, rather than Tekkadan's ultimate defeat being a natural result of the action up to that point.
And even if they'd somehow managed to pull through that on their own, they would have died at the beginning of season two, when Rustal began moving against them and they had no allies in Gjallarhorn to counter his influence. Remember, Rustal didn't try to destroy them because they were McGillis's allies, Rustal tried to destroy them because he believed that letting anyone defy Gjallarhorn and live would inevitably destroy Gjallarhorn's reputation of being invincible, and therefore lead to Gjallarhorn's downfall. The moment Tekkadan fought back when Gjallarhorn attacked them in the first episode of the first season, the only option that Tekkadan had was to destroy Gjallarhorn or die trying. Rustal's attitude toward those who defy Gjallarhorn ensured that.
(Technically there was a third option, but it would have meant breaking up the Tekkadan family and each individual member going into hiding alone or in small groups, which would do nothing to ensure that their lives would be any better than the ones they had under CGS and none of Tekkadan's members were willing to split up anyway.)
Edited by NativeJovian on Dec 28th 2018 at 1:57:03 PM
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
He used Tekkadan at the beginning to undermine Mcgillis. Their ties to him is what made Rustal invested in causing that petty squabble. Afterwards he doesn't engage in trying to undermine them and its the moron Iok who keeps on causing trouble for Tekkadan. Rustal was always invested in dealing with Mcgillis and Tekkadan continuing to side with him put them in conflict.
It was the Coup where they tried to aid Mcgillis in overthrowing Gjallahorn where he personally makes clear he was going to crush them, and as shown he doesn't even finish every member like he proclaimed. What he wanted was a symbol to kill. The Devil Barbatos was said symbol and Mikas death was used as the symbol for their victory.
The King of Mars was always a goal sought just to have a cushy life. It was never needed for them to survive, which is they realize too late they never needed to be King of Mars. They made it very clear how no one questioning Orgas actions in the second season because of their blind faith had lead to decisions that backfired on them all because he tried fo live up to that loyalty and unreasonable expectations. Not to mention their connections to Teiwaz was the real backing they had. Mcgillis they only joined when they lost their backing of Teiwaz and get revenge.
The Ein cyborg was Mcgillis as well, who not only admits to having the procedure done to himaelf, but had the scientists that did it use it on himself after he manipulated Gaelio into having Ein be the guinea pig test subject. Mcgillis engaged in the very corruption he proclaimed to be against for the sake of his goals.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 28th 2018 at 11:11:18 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Jupiterian Local
It's demonstrated repeatedly that Tekkadan's loyalty to Orga is not blind, and Orga repays their loyalty by genuinely doing what he thinks is best for Tekkadan. That frequently means sending some of them into dangerous situations, but with a group like Gjallarhorn determined to kill them all, gathering as much power as quickly as possible in order to effectively defend themselves is legitimately the best play they have.
So no, I don't agree at all with characterizing that situation as Orga being shortsighted and lashing out thoughtlessly in a desire for revenge.
Which is immediately disproven because he does not hunt down every member like he could have. He destroyed the symbol Tekkadan represented and let those who fled live and proceeded to improve things so human debris are not a thing. He needed a symbol to die that and thats what he got.
The first season doesn't matter to the situation in S2 because things changed, and its explicitly a point a newbie expressing his opinion anout how crazy Orgas plan of joining with Mcgillis is while everyone else just does what Orga says. Said old Mechanic even wishes more people were like him and actually gave their own opinions so Orga wouldn't be forced to carry all the burdens. Orga is explicitly stuck in a Viscious Cycle of trying to live up to Mikas expectations and reaching for the greater heights for them to follow and everyone else no longer expressed their opinions because Orga hadn't steered them wrong yet.
Thats why Mika and Orga realizing they never needed King of Mars during their end. All they needed was a decent life, not a grandiose one, and being with their friends. But by then it was too late.
Mcgillis used the scientists doing said experiment on Ein to be an example of Gjallahorns corruption, when he's the one funding those men in the first place to break the rules Gjallahorn had. Then has Iznario take the fall for it. And he did it precisely to be able to pilot Bael one day.
That has nothing to do with Gaelios own prejudices that he got over and accepted he was in the wrong for his attitude toward Tekkadan between seasons.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 29th 2018 at 1:30:33 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Jupiterian Local
The point of Mika's musings at the very end was that they didn't need to wait until some unspecified point in the future when things were "good" to enjoy their lives. It was basically "things sucked and now we're all dead, but it was alright while it lasted I guess". Which was awkward and out of place at that point in the story, but they were desperately trying to salvage the "Tekkadan fails and is destroyed, bad guys win" ending into something bittersweet instead of a straight downer ending, so they injected a scene of "well at least I had my friends. Before most of them were killed."
Also, Iznario didn't take the fall for Ein, he was disgraced because he got caught blatantly interfering with internal Arbrau politics, which Gjallarhorn is also not supposed to do. Presumably Gaelio would have taken the heat for Ein, if not for the fact that he was already "dead" by that point anyway.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Tekkadan had to be destroyed the point it had been precisely because they got involved in a coup to take over Gjallahorn. They were the instigators of that conflict whereas before they were the ones tryin to only orotect themselves. At that point destroying them as a symbol was what they needed to restore order after Tekkadan followed a man even Orga realized was someone they shouldn't have worked with until it was too late.. So that is when he tries to crush them. He didn't even need to kill actual members to achieve it just the remains of Barbatos and their base was enough to serve as legitimacy for it. Julietta even uses the head of Barbatos to show how they won.
The Dort Colonies were also in season 1 and the fat bastard had set them all up to be Martyrs to instigate conflict on Mars.
They did not need to risk their lives anymore. They continued to live under the belief that they needed to, and ruling over Mars itself was a grandiose plan that was more ambition than anything they actually needed. Mika gave up on farming much earlier and on anything better because he failed as a farmer and then decided being a tool that fights was fine. They had the capabilities and the allies to get them out of that and live better lives. Takaki even chooses to leave Tekkadan to keep what happiness he had instead of seeing it destroyed trying to become "Kings". Many of them got happier lives as we see in the epilogue, and the ones who sought revenge chose that path.
Takaki and the ending is a perfect example of how they got themselves in that situation when they always had a way out. Even dispersing and working under Mcmurdo not as soldiers like Nazes crew did if needed or working under Makanai and then under Kudelia.
Gaelio was desperate to save his friend and it was Mcgillis who convinced him to do it, not because he cared abour saving someones life but so he'd have a guinea pig and a pawn to make Tekkadan as heroes, and those scientists give the black market ones on Mars a rival in cruelty when they even removed limbs of Ein in the process. Gaelio didn't understand why people did that to themselves and he finally understood after being manipulated himself. Even then what was done to Ein was aweful in every way and if anything would normally strengthen the disgust in it. Instead he realized he was in the wrong and so changed his stance. There was nothing hypocritical when he even apologizes to Mika for it.
It didn't matter if Mcgillis didn't have a problem breaking the rules, because he uses Ein undergoing the process as the declaration of the corruption in Gjallahorn he seeks to remove. Completely ignoring that him being behind it all means Mcgillis is stating that he is also part of the corruption in Gjallahorn.
The rules are the ones Gjallahorn is founded upon, and breaking them is supposed to be bad. Lets not forget Mcgillis was perfectly fine followong the rules if it gets him what he wants. Like the rules about Bael. He broke the rules expecting everyone to follow him cause the rules said so. Then they don't because his own crimes that broke the rules ruined the legimitacy of his point.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 29th 2018 at 11:19:27 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Jupiterian Local
You'll notice that the ones who have reservations about the direction Tekkadan is going — most notably Biscuit and Takaki — are also the only ones who have family outside of Tekkadan? If you have something else — anything else — then going all-in on Tekkadan doesn't make as much sense. And Orga is totally up front about the fact that that's okay and that anyone who wants to leave Tekkadan can do so whenever they want with no hard feelings, and he'll even try to give them a leg up into whatever they're moving on to. But the vast majority of Tekkadan doesn't have anything else, which is why they're willing to risk their lives to keep the group together, rather than disband the group to save the members. You can argue that this is a bad decision that ultimately results in a lot of their deaths, but honestly I have a hard time taking a bunch of kids trying to make a life for themselves in the midst of a shitty situation and saying "well, your fault for wanting to stay with the only group of people who has ever cared about you, instead of splitting up and going it alone in an uncertain future".
Edited by NativeJovian on Dec 29th 2018 at 4:05:05 AM
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Except at the point this is stated Tekkdan had tried to take over Gjallahorn and were the aggressors. The situation at that point meant Rustal would show no mercy, which he still did for the survivors. We're not going to agree on this so lets stop that.
Theres no reason they can't all stay together or in groups with contact with another, which is exactly what happens in the epilogue. Makanai, Mcmurdo, Kudelia, they had the capability of staying in groups and not being separated. But they never let it cross their minds because they let something like he power of King of Mars entice them.
Also, Takaki chose to leave in part because he had already lost someone in Tekkadan with Aston. He wasn't going to lose another person he cared about, or dying himself, sticking with Tekkadan and a cycle of conflict they think they can't get out of but we're shown they can.
Mcgillis is partly responsible because he purposefully manipulates him into doing that for his own goals. Mcgillis even shamelessly gloat how it was all part of his plan later to make it clear. That doesn't mean Gaelio isn't partly responsible for his own choice because he let his compassion for someone he cared about cloud his judgement when the Devil tempted him with "saving" that person.
Gaelio had no idea what they did to Ein until they showed him after it was done to make it clear, and then Ein enthusiastically being happy about it.
It is hypocritical when he says it because all those men work for him and he ordered rhem to do so. This doesn't mean the rest of the organization can't be like that, but he has no standing or high ground at that point when he engages in the very corruption he views as wrong with the rest of Gjallahorn. Especially when he relies on those very rules he doesn't believe in to legitimize him as a psycho tyrant through Bael. Rustal even points out that by relying on Bael for his power he betrayed the very reforms he preached.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 29th 2018 at 1:58:34 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Jupiterian Local
If you say "man, I need some money" and your buddy says "well, you could rob a bank", it's not your friend's fault if you then decide to go and rob a bank. You knew what you were doing, you knew it was wrong, and you decided to do it anyway. That's on you, not on your friend for suggesting it.
Edited by NativeJovian on Dec 29th 2018 at 7:15:39 AM
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
They were the aggressors in the coup because they joined Mcgillis and whatever plans he had solely to benefit themselves. It had nothing to do with their past conflicts, and when their attempt to coup failed and he saw how dangerous Mcgillis was Orga tried to get out of it because they caused the conflict for once and it backfired.
And no Mcgillis was manipulating that situation fornhis plans. To say he was honest when he planned on having Ein die to Tekkadan and kill Gaelio as well shows it was all part of his schemes and he says as such.
I never said anything about the Cybernetics themselves being bad. But that Mcgillis was just as corrupt as the rest of Gjallahorn, nay, as corrupt as Iznario, Iok. or Rustal, and cherrypicked the rules he wanted and broke the others when it didn't suit his interests. So when he states how performing such an experiment is a sign of Gjallahorns corruption it shows how he's part of the very corruption itself because it was all caused, invested, and manipulated by him for his plans.
In fact most of Gjallahorn would have backed him as Bael if he hadn't killed members of Gjallahorn and exposed his other crimes instead of siting on the sidelines. Leaving only Rustal as opposition. So even then they would have followed the laws set down by Gjallahorn rather than be wholly corrupt. His betrayal of the Laws yet expecting others to obey him is why his plans failed.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 29th 2018 at 4:37:19 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
The Dawn Horizon Corps were something Tekkadan had to deal with as they were directly engaging them and as a PMC mafia group they couldn't just back down. And the earth branch happened because Rustal ordered Galan to start shit to damage Mc Glilis and Tekkadan and Galan in turn offered Radice a chance to stick it to kids he didn't like but it was still Rustal put it into place.