Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Because it's weapon wasn't ready to use yet. When Snoke is scolding Hux for losing track of BB-8, Hux come tells him that Starkiller Base is finally ready to use and that the Republic can be taken out.

And it's explicitly stated that while he was stationed on Starkiller, Finn worked in Sanitation. That could encompass a wide range of duties, which were never specified, so let's not call him a janitor, 'k?

Nope, it has nothing to do with finding Luke. Destroying those planets was not specifically to impede that mission, it simply interrupts the story with something bigger to deal with. The story up to that point was relatively still about finding Luke but then it became about the survival of the Republic and the Resistance, something that was not an issue until then. If the point of the story is to find Luke, then the climax should be about finding Luke, not leaving it to an afterthought following the climax.

The Hosnian system is destroyed specifically so that the Resistance can't call the Republic for military help if they need it. The Resistance is then specifically targeted to be destroyed before they find Luke. So the Resistance's fight for survival is still explicitly connected to the premise of finding Luke.

Connected, but it changes the objective of the plot from "find Luke", which is doubled since the discovery of the rest of the map comes about seemingly coincidentally after the heroes return. It isn't something they earn, and Abrams has even said that he regrets not making clear why R2 woke up all of a sudden.

But then they killed Han Solo after he got his ship back and gave said ship to their new character. And now Luke wants the Jedi to end.

If I were George Lucas watching TLJ's trailer I'd be shaking my fist pretty menacingly at the screen by that point.

edited 24th Apr '17 5:38:45 AM by Soble

^^ That's precisely it. They're connected because they are in the same movie, not because one innately leads to the other. The issue is that A) the map is affirmed to be useless without a vital component that they know nothing about, meaning the characters can't further that goal regardless of the introduction of Starkiller base and B) the destruction of Starkiller base does nothing to get the characters closer to their goal of finding Luke. That's why finding Luke becomes an afterthought in a movie about finding Luke.

Let it put it this way: the first part is more of a Indiana Jones esque aventure about the good guys and a bunch nazis trying to find something(luke) until the starkiller show up..

George Lucas did have lukewarm opinions about TFA, but his disdain seemed to be more because of how they locked him out of the creative process and just copied A New Hope rather than doing anything truly original.

Han Solo dying was, in fact, something I think Lucas had planned at some point. Luke bringing about the end of the Jedi Order over some centrist bullshit less so, probably.

Lucas was, curiously, a lot more fond of Rogue One than The Force Awakens.

edited 24th Apr '17 9:51:41 AM by Gaon

Ford wanted Han to die at least as far back as Return, maybe farther, it was something that Lucas at least knew about.

Rogue One paid a lot more respect to the universe and characters he created than TFA as well as didn't ruined all that they worked for in ROTJ so it was understandable that he liked it a lot better.

edited 24th Apr '17 10:05:59 AM by Memers

What centrism are you talking about? The Light and Dark dichotomy is what Lucas himself established, and the Lucasfilm Story Group have themselves said that the idea of "Grey Jedi" ( force users that use both as part of a singular force philosophy) is not going to be a thing in these stories.

I'm a bit skeptic.after Bendu in Rebels having his whole "Neither Light nor Dark" business (which wasn't bad, but felt like a bad omen to me) and Rey and Luke monologuing about how "there's so much more" than "Light and Dark" as well as Luke wanting to bring an end to the Jedi Order.

It's giving me bad vibes of Luke wanting Rey to be a Light-Dark balance.

is more than jedi arent enought, they must to do more.

In a way I get why since the whole idea that just be a jedi or a sith pretty much prove kreia idea that the forcé is evil or stupid

Bendu talked a big game being the one in the middle but his actual actions basically amounted to "leave me and my planet alone and out of your conflict or I'll lash out at everyone."

And I sincerely doubt that the Jedi Order is actually going to end. That line is missing some context.

I think the point here might be that both the Jedi and Sith as orders might be permanently finished. They are stale and pointless. Balance might be the only way to prevent catastrophic paradigm shifts happening every few centuries in the Star Wars universe.

Or the Jedi go through one massive overhaul.

edited 24th Apr '17 11:56:38 AM by TerminusEst

Anything might happen. Mace Windu with a cybernetic arm may be hiding in the Unknown Regions and shows up in the middle of the movie with an entire army of Jedi going

But that doesn't mean it's going to happen. My feeling is the clues thus far are pointing to the dreaded centrism.

And This is what I don't get. The Jedi Order stood unchallenged and by all accounts helped the Galaxy achieve a golden age of peace and prosperity for a thousand years. It's not like the Jedi literally cannot exist without the Sith. They managed a thousand years without the Sith whilst being extremely helpful to the Galaxy at large. The solution to "The Sith arise to destroy the Galaxy once again" shouldn't be "destroy the people trying to stop them."

Taking down the Jedi Order doesn't even change anything, when you think about it. Force Sensitive people will keep being born. Now you'll just lack a body of people to oversee these extremely powerful people.

edited 24th Apr '17 12:03:58 PM by Gaon

I think this would depend on how the thousand years are developed(and the rest of the past). The Jedi destroyed the Sith, forcing the Rule of Two for them to survive, get infiltrated under their noses etc. making their fall effectively a foregone conclusion. The Sith are self-destructive so back to zero.

In terms of Force sensitives, the old EU made it pretty clear that the Jedi were far from the most numerous Force users. There were plenty of groups and cultures with abilities that most Jedi could barely even comprehend.

The fundamental problem with this is that the Force as a device makes everything a hero or villain achieves pointless in the grand scheme of things. A bigger spectrum might help alleviate this issue.

edited 24th Apr '17 12:24:58 PM by TerminusEst

Honestly the order needs to exist from the perspective that well force uses continue to be born thus you got an X Men situation and without a place to go getting discriminated against and just being afraid of you will often lead down the darkside eventually.

Getting rid of some of the Jedi's questionable methods such as just sending kids away when they are discovered and taboo of forming attachments would be a good thing but the order itself in general needs to exist.

I was more thinking that something similar to this would happen. A far more shattered universe, with Jedi existing but not necessarily as part of the general galactic system (as it doesn't exist). More nomadic like.

edited 24th Apr '17 12:31:21 PM by TerminusEst

So maybe something like the Jedi Lords thing from Legends?

The idea of a variety of Lightsiders and Darksiders isn't even exclusive to the old canon, TCW featured a few differing branches of Force Users outside of the general dichotomy of Jedi-Sith. That isn't the problem. The problem's wanting to end the Jedi Order.

Jedi Order had decadent traditions and problematic ways, but by the entire logic of the star wars universe, not keeping them around sounds like a stupid idea.

On the idea of what to do with the Jedi Order, what could work is dismantling it and replacing it with a new organization, albeit with the same purpose. See the transition from the League of Nations to the United Nations in terms of purpose.

Also, making them wandering nomads is super dumb. You need the edifice — the Temples, the archives, the signature starfighters, etc. — to have the organization. The obsession with informality and decentralization is stupid.

But the UN is still incompetent. The Order's chief strength is it not being specifically tied to any one galactic entity. It being held subservient to the Judicial Corps with the Rusaan Reformations was one of the reasons it fell.

I think we need to keep in mind that the "It's time for the Jedi to end" line may simply be a reflection of Luke's state of mind at the very beginning of the movie and not taken as any sort of "truth", be it literal or metaphorical. Just because Luke says it doesn't make it true.

It could be that at the start of the movie Luke has completely lost hope. Maybe he didn't find the answers he was looking for at the first Jedi temple, or maybe the answers he did find only made the situation in the here and now seem more dire. But then Rey, or something about Rey, convinces him that there is still a chance to overcome the dark side.

The nomad part was perhaps a bit misleading, to use another piece of fiction, more like the Witcher schools at their prime.

Or like the Je'daii Rangers from Dawn of the Jedi.

edited 25th Apr '17 4:19:56 AM by TerminusEst