Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

I don't think whole legions of people are gonna make that mistake. Unless some news site reports it and it gets blown way out of hand. Which could happen, I suppose.. The Leia in TLJ will just be Fisher at her natural age, not de-aged with CGI, and if anything, I'm guessing that the marketing will actually highlight this being one of her final film roles, like they did for James Gandolfini and Philip Seymour Hoffman's last few movies.

Star Wars wasn't quite her first onscreen role and it might not be her last, but it's very close. Kinda nice.

edited 28th Feb '17 5:27:54 PM by Unsung

The Dark Knight is still in living memory. No mass crowd's going to think Fisher in Ep 8 to be CG.

I'd say most people who are out of the movie news loop enough to not know that Carrie Fisher already finished her scenes for Episode 8 will immediately assume that was the case when they see her in Episode 8 in a form that isn't obviously CGI'ed.

Even if some people way out of the loop think she's CGI'd in, I would like to imagine they will realize their mistake once they hear her voice.

My mom was one of those! I'd seen the movie with my household and went to see it with her a couple weeks later, and she was livid when everybody started dying and actually thought that the Rebels weren't going to escape with the Death Star plans. She was whispering to me when Vader started killing folks, "What, so everyone died for f*cking nothing? That sucks!"

edited 28th Feb '17 5:58:20 PM by TobiasDrake

That being said One of my major gripes with RO is that the entire film straight up falls apart without the existence of ANH. The appearances of Vader and Tarkin actively hurt the film as an independent piece, because they undermine the main villain and don't really receive any characterization. It's the ultimate step in serialized filmmaking, when an entire film relies on the audience having a solid grasp on the source material. Even the OT didn't demand this much from the viewer. Which is okay when the prerequisite material is literally a core part of American pop culture, but it's still frustrating that we're only receiving 0.5 of a movie.

I disagree, at least in regards to Tarkin. Krennic is a military officer, and thus is going to have superiors he answers to, and whom the protagonists might never meet. Rogue One is a war movie, after all. I'm sure there are plenty such movies where the villain gets orders from their superior officer. Do such characters hurt those movies?

Now, with Vader, you might have more of a point, as the movie presents as someone who is considerably more than just Krennic's superior. However - and this is probably my main disagreement with you - I think that by Rogue One's very nature of a prequel, it doesn't need to be a standalone, so it's failure to be one shouldn't really be taken as a point against it. It was intended to be a prequel to A New Hope, and that's what it was. I think that the stuff that stays within this movie should be judged on its own merits, and the stuff that's meant to tie into A New Hope should be judged on how well it manages to do that. I don't really have a problem with serialized movies.

edited 3rd Mar '17 12:56:11 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Yeah, Rogue One was always billed as the immediate prequel that leads directly into the events of ANH.

I think the film just leans a bit too heavily on it. Like, Vader only shows up in the last 5 minutes to do a very short bit of insane fanservice. They don't even bother trying to work it into the story, it's just slapped onto the end. That's what leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And it hurts the pacing of the film itself, because between trying to cram in all this fanservice in there's very little time to, say, develop the characters and their relationship to the world around them, or coherently explain what's going on without needing to cram three hours worth of exposition into the first act of the film. The film leans so heavily on its predecessors that the parts of the film that aren't as directly connected to them fall flat.

Well, that's where we part ways, I think. I think the standalone bits succeed, at least for the most part.

Ultimately, Vader's presence in the film is unneeded and serves primarily as fanservice to people wanting to see Vader kick ass in modern film. Especially with how it comes about in the film, forcing Vader into the story is what leads to the continuity snarl with the Tantive actually being at the Scariff battle (Vader says they intercepted a transmission in ANH, but he saw the data card and was trying to get it when he appeared in that hallway). If they didn't give Vader that scene, they probably would have done as ANH implied and retransmit the plans to the Tantive as it was passing through the system.

edited 3rd Mar '17 1:37:18 PM by KJMackley

It was fanservice I desperately needed.

I definitely like the Vader scene for the reason Tobias mentioned in this thread and/or others. It illustrates what it means to have no Jedi around except for Vader, because when he shows up in battle, he's an unstoppable one man army. I haven't read beyond the first volume, but this is definitely in line with the depiction of Vader in the Gillen comic, as is the sort of humorous/sympathetic note, helped by the fact that we generally/initially see him harming other Imperials.

I have more of an ambivalent feeling toward Krennic because of the extent to which in-universe and out he's a Poor Man's Tarkin. I think it works in terms of showing how the Empire's decision making/leadership operates a lot like Nazi Germany in terms of being run by a bunch of social darwinist sociopaths jockeying among and backstabbing each other for power. Which backfires in predictable ways.

Conversely though, while it's entertaining to see Krennic and Tarkin trying to screw each other over and Tarkin winning, it makes Krennic suffer as a character. Because that plot line calls attention to him being an "inferior new character" rather than the plotline of him as Galen's Evil Former Friend, which made him more of an interesting/original character.

Probably doesn't help that Hux of the new trilogy is also a take off on Tarkin. It's one of those things that calls attention to the use of character types.

They're definitely playing off that character archetype, but Hux is clearly very much the Not Tarkin, just as Kylo Ren is the Not Vader. Tarkin is calm, coolheaded, and very much accustomed to having his orders followed to the the letter.

Hux, however, is constantly in competition with Kylo for Snoke's confidence and attention. Meanwhile, Vader clearly respected Tarkin.

Which is cool, except it literally does not affect the outcome of the plot in any way. If this moment had happened halfway through the film or earlier, it would have done more, but the film does absolutely nothing to justify Vader's presence in the story. He's there because he's Darth Fucking Vader and you're going to shut the hell up and watch him kick ass.

edited 3rd Mar '17 1:53:13 PM by InAnOdderWay

No self respecting Star Wars fan can say they didn't enjoy that scene, but it came at the expense of the story and was playing to the audience. After TFA Star Wars needs to expand beyond playing to the audience, because there is only so much you can do before it becomes redundant.

One of the pitfalls to a Cinematic Universe is that if you commit to it, you are going to be forced to write in a way that isn't self sufficient and thus results in the movie being weaker on its own. The key is immersing the audience in the universe enough that they know it doesn't matter.

For example, on its own The Avengers is objectively a poor movie, but nobody is going to be seriously watching Avengers on its own and judging it as a standalone movie.

I feel that Rogue One's narrative justified Tarkin's presence pretty well by painting him as the Eviler than Thou commander to the wannabe villain that Krennic ultimately turned out to be- it did a good job of illustrating the inner power politics of the upper Imperial echelons. I felt like the movie was pushing Tarkin as its true main antagonist, and Krennic was simply the guy that had the most direct interactions with the plot. Krennic's relationship with Galen might have benefited with more time spent on it, but I feel like what we got was good enough on its own.

I still agree that Vader was pure fanservice, and while I was more than entertained enough to forgive it, his presence definitely hurt the film's narrative.

Vader's presence in the earlier part of the story is semi-justified, Krennic is looking for ways to go around Tarkin, so that much I can accept. But the problem with his appearance at the end is that he is hunting down and slaughtering nameless crew members, meaning the narrative of the movie essentially rests with him at that moment, almost making you hope he does get it. To actually make his appearance more than fanservice would be to have him target the main characters and the narrative of the movie being that they have started a fight with the most dangerous person in the Empire.

That very well might have been the initial plan, but they couldn't reconcile getting Vader to the ground battle and Tarkin Death Star-ing the whole base (which makes less sense the more you think about it, it's their own facility on a strategically important planet and by all accounts the Rebel forces on both space and ground fronts were on the ropes anyway). But I don't know, imagine Chirrut actually pulling out a lightsaber and word gets to Vader that a Jedi is down there.

I don't buy this. I may have been impressed by Vader's rampage, that's true - it's easily one of the movie's best shot scenes. But my sympathies were firmly with the Rebel troopers, and if this movie reminded me of anything, it's how monstrous the Empire is. I definitely connected with the Rebels more at that moment than I did with Vader, and that was what mattered.

Also, the Rogue One team dying at Vader's blade would be a rather lackluster ending to their arc, and making Chirrut a Jedi misses the point of his arc. Besides, Jedi-in-hiding is nothing new - I don't think we've seen someone like Chirrut before.

Same.

Same.

Same.

The theme of the movie - especially the last leg - is one person passing hope to another, even in the face of indomitable odds that will result in their death or self-sacrifice, and so on and so forth until it ends up in the hands of someone who can do great good with it.

That several of the people who pass along the message are nameless doesn't throw off that narrative. In fact, it's the entire point. This is not a movie that supports the idea that only the main characters are important - but rather, it internalizes the idea that the main characters are just few of many in a wider cause.

The scene with Vader cutting them down is pure fanservice, but his presence there is also to personally hammer in the idea that the Rebels can't win today. Those troopers die to show that they may win tomorrow.

edited 4th Mar '17 12:51:04 AM by KnownUnknown

And in the process everyone is just geeking out over seeing Vader wreck some shit. That prevents a complete immersion into that sense of desperation, and a problem whenever your villain is just that cool. For that sequence specifically, it probably would have been better serviced having just stormtroopers hunting down and shooting people, also heightening the similarity with the opening firefight of ANH.

Imagine instead, if Vader carved his way to Raddus. Maybe even a Neck Lift as he asks where the plans are, and THAT is punctuated by the lone crewmember slipping into the Tantive and it disengages from the capital ship.

Speaking critically, if the scene itself doesn't distract from the point of the movie and instead shows it rather strongly - which it does - then the audience ignoring it because they'd rather focus on something memetic is at least partially their fault, and less the movie's.

And even of they do have some of the blame for the fan reaction, the idea that the narrative of the movie actually lies with Vader in that scene is ridiculous. At no point in the movie does Vader ever jump from anything past "incidental antagonist" or Bigger Bad, and he's certainly not the center of the narrative at any point (in an interesting move, at that point in the movie the narrative lies with and follows the plans themselves - from Raddus' ship, out of Vader's grip, to Leia's hands).

edited 4th Mar '17 1:41:12 AM by KnownUnknown