The U.S. Culture(s) thread

I find Mormonism in general to be really creepy. I feel bad because they're individually usually nice people, but listening to any ex-Mormon (particularly gay ones) doesn't exactly give you a positive impression of the religion.

However, Mormonism is a very "American" phenomenon, it seems to me.

edited 21st Dec '16 3:32:08 PM by majoraoftime

To be fair, ex-followers of a religion are generally going to have a negative view of that religion.

edited 21st Dec '16 3:38:40 PM by Protagonist506

I agree. I used to be a regular at r/exmormon (a lot of people on my dad's side are devout mormons or at least used to be, and my own family used to go to church with some frequency) and many of the stories I read there were pretty sad.

Joseph Smith himself was, by most historical accounts, a questionable man. Many of the more intellectually honest mormons can admit he was flawed but don't quite understand how to reconcile the polygamist and "disorderly person" with the saintly prophet they were taught about in sunday school.

Yes, but it seems particularly pronounced with Mormons. They really like to maintain a tight grip on their people.

Mormon communities seem to be extremely tight-knit and of course very devout, maybe partially because of their history as a persecuted minority. When someone tries to leave the group… well, it's no wonder it's an issue.

edited 21st Dec '16 3:53:10 PM by majoraoftime

Given that Mormonism was founded by an American in America, and this guy basically used the concept of Manifest Destiny to his and his group's advantage, I fail to see how it could NOT be an American phenomenon. In any case, it's bound to change with the times and already has. Most religions do, or risk dying out.

edited 21st Dec '16 3:56:17 PM by AceofSpades

Well, yeah. Southern Baptism is pretty American, but Mormons more-or-less literally worship America, with some uncomfortable racial undertones.

I assume this is true across the political and social spectrum (for different reasons), right?

edited 21st Dec '16 5:13:10 PM by Quag15

Americans generally agree that "freedom" is good, though freedom means different things to different people. For example, some of America's more nationalist elements are considered celebrations of freedom by some and authoritarian by others.

My main problem with american nationalism is that, like many nationalisms, it's often juvenile and lacking in critical self-evaluation.

Ta Nehisi Coates described a phenomenon he called "patriotism a la carte" where everyone in America wants to celebrate the "good" things like 4th of July even though they weren't there, but when the moment comes to own up to something shameful like the reasons behind the Civil War, there's always the denial, the insistence that they can't be held responsible for something that they weren't there for, the whitewashing of history, etc.

I don't think American patriots view the Civil War as shameful. As a person on very conservative You Tube channel said "I'm proud to be part of an organization [the US army] which ended such an evil practice in our nation".

So, I think the general attitude among American patriots is that America was willing to fight a war against slavery, and this is something to be proud of.

edited 21st Dec '16 8:16:23 PM by Protagonist506

The myth of the Lost Cause sort of puts a damper on that.

Another way to look at it is that half of America fought (and lost) a war to keep slavery. And their descendants are still butthurt over it.

edited 21st Dec '16 10:47:26 PM by M84

I would say that southerners do view the civil war as a shameful part of their history which is why you get stuff like "no, the war was really about fighting big government/slavery wasn't that bad and there were white slaves/confederate soldiers just wanted to defend their homes" (true, but if they'd won the result would be the continuance of slavery for at least a few decades).

Not really. Lots of them are very proud of their state's or their family's part of the war. This is just whitewashing and trying to make the South heroic, not trying to brush an old shame under the rug.

There ought to be a way to honor the tragedy of the Civil War without whitewashing it. I don't know how, exactly, mind you.

The real tragedy is that we kicked the racism can down the road and had to have the war in the first place.

From the little I read yes the fact that the war had to happen itself was the tragedy.

The South was morally indefensible any way you look it. It's way past time they owned up to that and felt the collective shame so they can stop being assholes about it.

Well they're not really ashamed of it is the thing. They're more upset that they lost than anything else.

When I say tragedy, I mean as the bloodiest conflict in our history in cost of human life, all politics aside.

The best way we could honor the event is to teach the actual truth. In pretending that the Confederacy was in any way "not so bad", we bring dishonor to all. The South (and those who sympathize with them) must accept and come to terms with their shame before they can ever have honor again because otherwise the stain of dishonor will never come out.

Oh come on. Its that attitude that lost us the election in the first place. If you cant see the admirable qualities of people who disagree with you, then they have no incentive to compromise with you.

That said, the Republican party establishment are a pack of hypocrites, something a majority of republican voters recognize as well.

edited 22nd Dec '16 1:30:07 PM by DeMarquis

...Sorry.

That said, I honestly can't find anything to admire about the GOP. I'm trying to, but I just can't. If anyone could find something actually admirable about them, I'd be glad to hear it, because I still can't think of a single thing.

This line of conversation is better suited for the US Politics thread, so I'm responding to that there.