For Honor!

Dude, why do you stick around this thread if your just going to complain about it every chance you get?

Having played both this and chivalry, I vastly prefer this one to chivalry, it's fine if you dont, but sticking around a thread just to complain isn't fun.

The combat isnt that slow, and honestly the feeling of weight it has is much better then most things "look how I can make 3 cuts in one second with a multiple pound object"

The game can be quite fun when it is played one on one, where it plays much like a fighting game, the bigest issue it has is the amount of people who gang up on every one else. :/

edited 24th Feb '17 3:16:29 AM by Imca

Really? It doesn't seem that slow based on what I see so far. The execution moves' animation can be kinda long, but I don't think the rest of the moves are that slow.

Ah, so the 4v4 battle is indeed kinda bad, huh? I guess I should stick to 1v1 battle if I play it.

So, no problem with the transaction, updating, and lag? Just it can be kinda slow?

I don't know for Updating schedules, but "Steel" is a free currency in game, you can earn it by playing.

The game is peer-to-peer so your lag experience can vary wildly.

I don't mean to imply that you're wrong for liking For Honor, but there are things I see in the design of this game that make it badly flawed on a core mechanics level. The most common meaningful criticism I see coming from other people is how the matchmaking doesn't work or how the gear system is unbalanced or how group fights suck. All of these are absolutely valid criticisms, but there lacks this kind of analysis for For Honor's basic combat system, so I thought it'd benefit the discourse to make these arguments.

Dueling was where I had the most fun with the For Honor open beta, I agree with you in that sense. Team games were almost always awful, whereas in one-on-one the combat was more an even test of skill- at least, so long as they don't stun you with a guardbreak and then kick you off a cliff. It's still not a good combat system, though. Every attack is a set animation that locks you into it until it finishes, it's like watching a short cutscene every time you swing your weapon. That is the last thing you want to do when designing a melee combat system.

For comparison, Chivalry's combat system allows you to move your character and mouse to aim and vary your strikes, which makes your input and choices as a player actually meaningful in literally every second of combat and makes for very tense and tactical gameplay. It's actually an open and dynamic system based on simple rules where you can swing for and hit any target you want. I don't think it's a very controversial statement to say that, when designing a game that's supposed to be about melee combat, it's better to give the player more control in terms of combat rather than less. Being able to make choices that impact how gameplay plays out is kind of the single defining characteristic of video games as a medium, after all.

Furthermore, the Art of Battle's 3-direction block-attack system mandates the use of a lock-on feature to free your mouse/right thumbstick from controlling the camera to controlling your attack/defense. This means that every battle has to be fought as a series of duels, even if you're up against two people at once. It's why they had to include the Revenge feature to make it possible for one player to fight more than one opponent- as an awkward, contrived crutch for their poorly conceived game mechanics clashing with one-another. This is an example of the kind of ingrained flaw that speaks to a poorly-designed game, where you have to introduce new game mechanics to cover for the flaws or imbalances inherent in other game mechanics.

Chivalry has it's flaws- attack adjustment being based on mouse sensitivity being one example and attacks being at a constant speed. But it gives you more control on the whole than For Honor ever does.

4v4 is definitely bad. Every time I played it it's been a clusterfuck.

Every attack commits you to a predefined animation that lasts for about 1 second. This will in all likelihood start to grate on you very quickly. You're also very slow when moving around in combat while locked-on to an opponent. If you've ever played Dark Souls, the combat in that series is much smoother and should have been used as the basis for combat in this game.

From my brief experience with No Honor, it doesn't feel too slow. It's certainly slower than other fighting games, but that's a deliberate decision. You're slugging it out with seven-feet-tall warriors clad in heavy armor and toting heavy weapons. They're bound to have weight to them.

Honestly I would not have played this game if it was Dark Souls-like, and I say that as a huge fan of the Soulborn series.

I'd rather have variety in fighting games than have them all orbit a very similar pattern of timing, dodge, etc.

The only way I find it slow is if you're constantly using heavy attacks. Otherwise it seems fine to me.

Is that so? How about matchmaking?

I see, group battle sucks, huh? I guess I should expect that from the lock-on style battle system. As for the animation, predefined animations are kinda bad, but not a deal-breaker, considering a lot of fighting games have them. Besides, aren't you supposed to be able to feint in this game?

I don't know about Dark Souls-style combat, though. I've tried it and it's fun, but isn't that basically just attack, roll, and repeat until the enemy is dead?

edited 24th Feb '17 7:27:57 AM by Advarielle

I'll let others speak of that because I was only on the beta, so I wouldn't be able to say for the current matchmaking.

Dark Souls combat has lock-on too, but it's optional. The one key difference is that your character is much more agile and it takes away your control over your character for far shorter periods of time. Dark Souls' combat has you commit to a set animation/attack pattern every time you attack, but the game's movement and weapon movesets are all built to make combat fluid and responsive.

I chose Dark Souls as an example because it's the closest mechanical analogue I could think of.

I see, Dark Souls' combat is indeed more fluid. I don't think it fits For Honor-style game, but I understand what you want to say. To be honest, I'm more concerned with the Revenge mechanic than the animation. I think the predefined animations are meant to punish button-smashing players and a lot of games have them, but the Revenge mechanic seems kinda cheap and don't mesh with the "test of skill" theme of the game. Haven't try the game, though. So, I could be wrong.

Other than that, I'm more concerned with the other stuff like transaction, updating, lag, matchmaking, map layout, and so on. Those stuff have ruined more than one game for me.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think doing that is necessary to punish random hack-and-slash button mashing. There are better ways to do that that don't make it feel like swinging your weapon takes away control of your character. Dark Souls has a stamina system that does that job very well- and For Honor ALSO has a stamina system that could do the same thing! There's really no need to lock your character in place to achieve that, it just makes the game feel unresponsive.

You're entirely right about the Revenge mechanic, though. It is absolutely cheap. It's purely tilting the scales in favor of the outnumbered character in a very unsubtle intrusive way.

Well there has to be some balance so that players can't just gang up on one person.

Also, of course the really big moves are going to take control away from your character when most of them are big two-handed weapons. Almost every weapon in the game requires momentum and a huge amount of strength to swing. If you want speed go for Peacekeeper, Valkyrie, Berserker, Nobushi, or Orochi. Those are the fast classes.

The thing is though most of the long attacks can be feinted out of.

Not that I actualy know how. :/

The combat is fun but there is a steep learning curve. And by steep I mean steep. You will probably be torn to shreds for a few days just trying to learn the proper mechanics of your class and how to block at proper times (or only at a small time if your playing an assassin).

The matchmaking is indeed frustrating, that is a legitimate criticism. When I was playing with my partner me and her were getting prestige players left and right, and we aren't talking about prestige ones, we are talking about prestige 3s and 4s. People whom are generally much more experienced at the game and tore through my partner like paper because she was a level 5. I could fight some of them off but my Peacekeeper can't fight 2 or more people off easily.

Now as for the gear thing. Gear from what I can tell does not matter unless you are in dominion mode. And most people just build it for revenge mode incase gankers try to kill them.

The major complaint I have is peer-to-peer servers. I can't tell you how annoying it is for the game to get several disconnections at once, for host D Cs to completely get me killed (has happened a few times), and there is other issues in regards to that too.

The only other major complaint I have is how environmental kills work. They are too easy to get if you ask me. I am not even joking when I say that from my point of view it has looked like I had a chance of surviving cliff throwers before but the cliff, or pit looked like it sucked me in like a black hole. I have also fallen off into a pit just via simply a stumbling teammate. Honestly to me it's a frustration because pretty much every map in the game has these and in some of them they are damn near unavoidable as the game enforces you to fight in those areas. These days I just knock people off before they get the chance to do it with me. If they made pulling environmental kills harder then I think that would solve a lot of the problem.

edited 24th Feb '17 1:12:15 PM by Wispy

I haven't been kicked off a ledge yet mainly because the map voting has mostly stayed away from maps that have environmental hazards like that. The one time I've used the environment to my advantage that way was when I killed a Shugoki with a drop kill.

@Imca You press the circle/B/revive button on controller right during the startup of the heavy. It won't work if you press it too late. That's called a hard feint by some. Also, a lot of heroes have specific soft feints, the warden's shoulder bash into GB being one.

The thing about 1v2 or 1v3s is, I don't think you should really be expecting to win those, especially if both are good players. It's not fun getting ganged up on, but on the other hand there has to be an advantage to numbers.

Here's my best tips for fighting against multiple opponents; defend until you get revenge, wait for someone to attack, then pop revenge to knock them over. Once they're down, use your strongest heavy attack to kill whomever you can in that moment, and if your revenge meter lasts long enough you may be able to get off an execution (the revenge armor will protect you during the animation, but you better use your fastest one). If you're only fighting two opponents, then you'll be in a much better position. However, in a 3 or 4v1, if you don't get that execution they will just revive their teammate. However, if you want to survive getting ganged up on, you need to keep your cool. Run away if you can, but if retreating isn't an option, you need to try to turtle it out. Don't attack unless you have revenge, because it's when you attack that you get stabbed in the back.

If you're heavily outnumbered, you also might as well fight on a ledge and hope you can toss a few off the sides. It's unlikely you're going to win a 3v1, so it's a risk worth taking.

EDIT: One more thing, if you're ganging up on someone, try not to help them build up their revenge by attacking wildly. It actually is to your advantage to let your teammate try to 1v1. When their health gets low, tag in and take over.

edited 24th Feb '17 3:37:04 PM by StarOutlaw

Yeah, this is one of the more realistic army-combat games. The minions are one thing, but you can't go into a fight with multiple skilled opponents and expect to come out alive.

I am pissed.

So I see an engraving for Nobushi that I really really wanted. Spent hours going through the Samurai story on hard mode. Got killed constantly in Apollyon's fortress because for some stupid fucking reason the devs decided to disable guards on that one chapter. I get to Apollyon and am absolutely flabbergasted on how they designed her boss battle, it's less climatic and more bullshit frustrating just like General Tenzen's fight. To make matters worse their is no checkpoints so if you die you start at the very start of it. She pulls every bullshit stop imaginable, fighting you in a clausterphobic space, ganking you with a Warden and PK, fighting you in a area with really damaging rocks (nearly killed me).

After all that I didn't even get credit. The Moth Engraving on Nobushi is still locked. I am just beyond pissed because I worked hours getting through the Samurai story only for my whole reason of doing it being null.

Edit: Found the issue, apparently I did the first mission on normal and the last on realistic by accident. I still think the last boss isn't well designed but that explains a lot of the reason as to why I was having a lot of trouble with her.

I am actually kind of happy I managed to beat Apollyon on the hardest difficulty atm.

edited 27th Feb '17 1:24:16 AM by Wispy

Oh yeah, I use that engraving on the Nobushi mask. Makes her look like she has n even spookier face.

I really wish that the Nobushi masks didn't have those permanent specks of white paint on them. Any paint pattern other than white looks really bad because of it.

Oh and here's this:

edited 27th Feb '17 5:37:32 AM by StarOutlaw

Death from REALLY above

Patch coming tomorrow.

edited 27th Feb '17 11:57:33 AM by VutherA

There was a dev stream a little while ago where they talked about some of the heroes' winrates. Warlord and Conqueror are currently winning a lot in 1v1, while Raider and Lawbringer are losing a lot, though Raider is really good in 4v4. Lawbringer also gets most of his kills from the environment. Valkyrie has a 36% winrate in 1v1. The devs are going to wait and see how Peacekeeper's latest changes will affect her winrate before they tweak her any further.

They also mentioned that the faction war is still very experimental, and that they'll likely make some changes so that you get some kind of reward for winning turns. If it were up to me, I'd give a slight xp/steel boost for controlling more territories.

Am I the only person who hs trouble fighting Valkyrie? I don't see what's weak about her, she has great defense options (assassin dodge, and the full guard and block on certain moves like a Warlord). Is it just a matter of knowing when she's left open?

edited 1st Mar '17 4:16:15 PM by StarOutlaw

No, I have trouble fighting anyone with a spear.

And I'm not surprised Lawbringer isn't doing very well; when I was playing Holden Cross he felt really sluggish.

Its not the spear for me its the sheild.

I find it hard to belive she is loosing most of the time. ._.;

Maybe a lot of people pick her up, then drop her when they see how hard she is to learn and end up losing.

But yeah, her light attacks feel fast and hard to predict, I don't know why they feel like they need to buff her speed..