Needs Help: Mad Lib Fantasy Title

As the discussion page for Mad-Lib Fantasy Title makes clear, the page needs help. The description is very vague and includes almost any fantasy work. It also seems confused about the meaning of "metafiction." Also, various Tropers clearly disagreed about what counts - someone listed "magician" and "Faerie Tale" as aversions of stock fantasy careers or metafictional terms, but plenty of other entries include things less typical of the genre than that.

I've deleted a few of the most clearly wrong examples in the list, but would like to ask for help trimming more, and/or narrowing down the definition of the trope to prevent this.

The list of "buzzwords" reads like someone tried to cover every word they've ever seen in a fantasy work title.

Most of them don't fit the pattern of "epic-sounding but meaningless," at least not without context.

'Epic But Meaningless Fantasy Title' might work for this actually.

But really many of the examples are epic and meaningful like Record Of Lodoss War is meaningful as it was originally a published transcript of a Role Play about war(s) on the continent of Lodoss, It's Engrish but is exactly what it says on the tin.

And Final Fantasy was going to be Square Soft's final fantasy game before it went out of business but the game saved the company.

edited 19th May '15 5:02:00 AM by Memers

As it stands, the trope just kinda looks like an overly broad analysis of different kind of naming patterns. I think Epic But Meaningless Fantasy Title could be a thing, and it feels like this wants to be that, but it's trying to pick on everything. There's only so original a name can be and still get the point across to the audience.

A lot of these names are pretty boring and follow patterns that aren't likely to get them to stand out on a shelf, but they're more than appropriate in context.

Perhaps it could be Epic But Doesnt Stand Out Fantasy Title? That would be pretty YMMV though. I think that's the problem it currently has.

edited 19th May '15 4:36:54 PM by Jokubas

Personally, I'd be inclined to narrow the definition as follows. A work is using the trope if its title includes one of the following: a metafictional description ("Song" or "record," for example), "adventure" or a synonym ("quest," for example), a title of feudal nobility ("lord" or "king," for example), or "sword," "dark," "dragon."

That would get a lot of traditional high, low, or heroic fantasy, and exclude a lot of mystery, sci-fi, historical fiction, and so on. It doesn't get all fantasy and exclude all non-fantasy, but it doesn't have to, obviously. The trope is Mad-Lib Fantasy Title, not all fantasy titles, and non-fantasy titles that fit the trope are still worth listing.

I decided to do a quick survey of the Fantasy Literature lists. There are 57 works listed there with titles beginning with A. Of those, maybe as few as 24 fit the current definition, so it's as broad as People Sit On Chairs, which is Not A Trope. On the other hand, nine fit mine. It seems narrow enough to be a trope, but still common enough to be notable.

My biggest remaining concern is professions. Including titles of nobility seems like a no-brainer to me. The current "Stock character classes: Warrior, Assassin, Thief, Hunter, Knight, Mage/Sorcerer/Wizard/Witch/Magician/Warlock," is way too vague, but does anyone have any specific descriptors to use, or a rule of thumb that would get most fantasy instances and few non-fantasy instances?

I don't know, it sounds a bit too vague. It seems to encompass any title ever which isn't named after a character and isn't a one-word title.

And the examples make it even more confusing. E.g. how does "A New Hope" fit even this vague list? Or why is World Of Darkness' trademark "X: The X" naming method listed here, when it's clearly different from what's stated in the description? "Sonic Chaos"???

We need to determine how to make this trope less vague, and work from there.

Not quite any title, the list doesn't count animals or vehicles, so Snakes On A Plane is safe. Who wants to bet the only reason nobody's put in animals or vehicles is because the first paragraph said Snakes On A Plane doesn't count?

I'd say the first thing we need to do is remove the word list completely. As long as the list is there, the trope is just "words that (someone thinks) are common in fantasy titles" followed by an example section filled with anything that has one of those words in its name. I'm sure editors can figure out if a name sounds epic or not without a list, and determining whether the name has any meaning in the work or if its just "buzzwords" requires context, not a look-up table.

A rename could be good, too. The trope doesn't really have anything to do with mad libs (not even as a word list as it currently stands), nor is it necessarily exclusive to the fantasy genre. Epic Meaningless Title?

I agree with that. If we go with Epic Meaningless Title, maybe the main criterion would be whether the title has anything to do with the story itself or is just a random combination of words?

edited 4th Jun '15 12:37:08 PM by Rjinswand

"Just a random combination of words" is Word Salad Title.

The real purpose of a name trope like this one is simply to advertise the work as a fantasy story. If it's a fantasy story the title should sound like a fantasy story. The trope seems to want to describe it by picking words commonly used that have a fantasy connotation.

Basically, it's not so much about sounding epic as it's about sounding fantasy, although the degree of epicness can certainly imply the scale of the story, and fantasy is commonly "epic".

Whether the words are meaningless is, well, meaningless, unless maybe if you want to describe a subtrope of what I described and Word Salad Title. The vast majority of the words in titles do reference something in the story, and as such aren't meaningless.

Being broad doesn't make it People Sit On Chairs. No Trope Is Too Common. Lacking meaning or being coincidental does.

I don't think A New Hope is an example. I would strike the "emotionally charged words" section, since that's just as common in introspective fiction. Well, I imagine. They might work in combination with something else on the list, but not on their own. Heart of the Tower, sure. Silver Heart, not really. Even if that's also on the list. On the other hand, have "sorcerer" or "dragon" in the title, and you're pretty much done (unless you use a non-fantasy word, like Online Sorcerer, which gives it a 50/50 chance of being fantasy).

Also, "It doesn't mean that it's a bad story either, just that the author couldn't think of a name," is a stupid statement, since it implies the author would avoid the trope if she had a better idea, which in turn implies it is bad, contrary to the pothole. The trope being used means the author thought it was a good title, or she would've thought of something else.

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That may be true in some cases, but most of the words on the list don't say "fantasy" either. And considering the description isn't written as exclusive to fantasy in the first place, that sounds like a different trope to me. This one is clearly about epicness.

The list isn't just wizards and dragons, it includes pretty much everything except character names. Dramatic events, place names and Mac Guffins already covers the majority of non-character naming conventions (in any genre).

Not much point discussing whether "A New Hope" is an example or not, when based on the word list, "Star Wars" itself is already 100% covered ("Time and space on a grand scale" + "Dramatic events").

Okay, so what part of the list would work?

Here it is (with some commentary of mine):

• Metafictional descriptors aiming to present the book as something more epic: Chronicle, Saga, Legend, Tale, Fable, Song, Ballad. So it is about sounding "epic", after all?
  • Dramatic events: Adventure, Quest, Journey, Beginning, End, Rise, Fall, Conquest, War. Too vague. All of them, except "Quest" maybe, aren't really fantasy-related.
  • Bonus points for biblical references: Genesis, Testament, Exodus. How is it "fantasy"? I've mostly seen Biblical references in sci-fi works.
• Fantasy settings and locations: Castle, Fortress, Tower, Kingdom, Empire, Realm. Can work, but depends on the context. "Kingdom" and "Empire" could be historical rather than fantasy, and "Empire" is also common in sci-fi.
  • As well as the actual names of the locales in question. Wut
• Stock character classes: Warrior, Assassin, Thief, Hunter, Knight, Mage/Sorcerer/Wizard/Witch/Magician/Warlock, etc. "Hunter" isn't a stock fantasy character class, it's a real world job/hobby, or just anyone/thing that hunts anyone/thing. Ditto with "Assassin" and "Thief". "Warrior" is also often used as a non-fantasy word for "fighter", "soldier".
  • Also titles of authority: King, Prince, Lord. Can work, but could be historical rather than fantasy.
• Supernatural creatures: God/Goddess, Demon, Dragon, Ghost, Phantom, Spirit. "Spirit" has a ton of meanings, and I'd say is rarely used in the "fantasy ghost character" meaning. "Demon", "Ghost", "Phantom" are most often used in mystical and horror works ("Phantom" can also be an adjective without any fantasy/mystical/horror connotations). "God/Goddess" is another religious reference that can be found in a variety of genres.
• Weapons (Sword, Dagger, Blade) or other assorted McGuffins (Ring, Crown, Amulet, Throne). Too vague. Words like "Ring" are often used in symbolic titles outside of fantasy. Also, how are these "McGuffins"?
• Gems and metals - Steel, Diamond, Gold, Mythril. "Gold" is used in every genre ever. Likewise with "Steel", "Iron", "Silver" and "Diamond". "Mythril" is a fictional material invented by fantasy authors, so it denotes fantasy because of that, not because it's a metal.
• Mystical concepts - Dream, Spell, Curse, Chaos, Omen, Prophecy, Destiny, Oath. Too vague. Most of those can be seen in any genre, due to being broad symbols.
• Time and space on a grand scale - Age, Eon, Epoch, Sun, Moon, Star, Infinity, Eternity. Likewise
• Extended table of magical elements - Fire, Air, Wind, Lightning, Stone, Ice, Light, Dark, Life, Death. Likewise. The only way I can see those being fantasy-related is if they're used in a "X of Fire/Light/Life/etc." way.
• Emotionally charged words - Heart, Soul, Tears, Sorrow, Wrath. Likewise
• Bonus points for finding a vampire series that doesn't have at least one volume with Blood, Night, or both. This is true.
  • Ditto with werewolves and Moon. Maybe, I haven't seen many werewolf-related titles myself

So yeah. We can try weeding this list to get rid of all the vagueness, but what will be left?

P.S.: If anything, I'd add a "Stock Fantasy Races" point: Dwarf, Elf, Orc, Goblin, Halfling etc.

edited 5th Jun '15 5:55:56 AM by Rjinswand

Sci-fi isn't necessarily divorced from fantasy. Star Wars is fantasy. Mystery, horror, and other genres can also be fantasy. Much of religious fiction would probably fit as well. But if you say "fantasy", most people would probably first think of epic fantasy, like The Lord of the Rings. Which is probably where the description comes from. It doesn't seem to know what it wants to describe.

Any one word could fit into another genre. That's not the point. "Could be (genre)" is a weak argument. That assumes the words are only used in fantasy, as if fantasy (or epics, if you have that interpretation) use a title language separate from all other genres.

It's a pattern built on connotations, connections between words, and Tropes in Aggregate. There's never going to be a clear cut list of words that fit the trope, and a list of words that don't. Single words are probably not going to be enough on their own. In certain patterns, maybe. Along with other words in certain patterns, then you've got this trope.

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Mystical/horror is a different genre than fantasy, and I'd say it has its own stock naming conventions (e.g. various "scary-sounding" and "mystical-sounding" words etc.).

"Could be another genre" means that tropers will (not "could", but will) inundate the example list with titles that have nothing to do with the author creating a "fantasy-sounding" title.

Exactly! As I said, just any titles with "Fire/Ice/Life/etc." in them aren't Mad-Lib Fantasy Title. However, titles with "X of Fire/Ice/Life/etc." usually are.

I'd suggest using Mad Lib Thriller Title as basis. It presents a specific pattern that the titles follow: "The + Meaningful Sounding Noun Or Name + Noun With Political Or Symbolic Connotations". Likewise, here we could spot several repeating patterns. E.g. "X of Element" could be one of them, another common one is "X's Quest/Journey".

P.S.: Star Wars isn't fantasy, it's just based on old pulp sci-fi which used much more elements that are nowadays associated with fantasy than modern sci-fi does.

edited 5th Jun '15 6:54:00 AM by Rjinswand

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