Is it OK to judge by whom people date?

We all have traits that we judge people on. Some of them work pretty well ("Hmmm, she spends her free time doing charity, my opinion of her goes up!" or "Wow, he just kicked a puppy, my opinion of him goes down!"), and some of them are pretty terrible ("Look at his skin color, I bet he's unintelligent.")

I find myself often judging people based on who they choose to date. If a girl I know dates someone who treats other people shitty, I tend to think less of her as a person (I don't try to spend time around her or befriend her). If a guy I know dates a girl that spends her time gossiping about "ugly girls" or someone not wearing designer clothes, I tend to think less of him as a person.

Is this something lots of people do? Is it a useful trait to judge someone on? Does it provide more information than, say, who someone is friends with?

EDIT: This post has NOTHING to do with people in relationships where their partner is abusive toward them. It has to do with people in relationships where their partner is abusive to third parties. I have explained this in posts below but that point keeps getting lost. One more time.

THIS POST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PEOPLE IN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP WITH A PARTNER THAT ABUSES THEM.

edited 18th Feb '15 12:31:45 PM by Vericrat

Opened. Also, is there a way to change the title? The "who" should be "whom," and it bugs me a little.

EDIT: Thank you to the mod that changed it.

edited 18th Feb '15 12:32:05 PM by Vericrat

Not without Admin intervention...

Love Makes You Dumb. When you are in love, you either stop seeing flaws in your partner, or wilfully ignore them. You don't really get to choose who you are attracted to, so while dating a terrible person doesn't say much good about your tastes, it doesn't really say anything about your character.

Well, in the same sense it's okay to judge anyone on any thing.

Depends completely on context and reasoning.

I agree you don't get to choose whom you are attracted to, but you are capable of choosing whom you date. I think if I dated women who were nasty and rude to other people, that it would say something bad about me.

It's ok to have concerns if you think they're dating a bad/abusive person, but being a judgmental twat is good in exactly 0 situations.

It's the "Infatuation", not the "Dating" that blinds one to such unwanted traits. Since one tends to date people that they are attracted to, it is unlikely that they get to make entirely well-reasoned decisions regarding their dating life.

Also, I'm going to have to agree with Luminosity as well.

Well in this scenario you have already judged the dated party as bad. So I guess what I do a lot of times is think, "Well [dating party] apparently is okay enough with the behavior of the bad person to date them. If he/she is okay with their significant other acting like that to third parties, I don't want to be around him/her." When I say "bad person" I'm typically referring toward third parties, so abuse doesn't really come into it (because of the psychological factors that can make it difficult to leave those relationships).

I'm also not sure how I feel about the idea that it's okay to be blinded to the fact that someone treats the people around them badly. If I see a girl I'm attracted to and I see her acting like a jerk to the people around her, gossips behind their backs, and in other ways is hurtful, I may be strongly inclined to get with her because I'm attracted to her, but I would refrain from doing so because I don't want to associate with or reward that kind of behavior.

I guess the question is, does the person know what an asshole their SO is? Sometimes people act radically different around people they're trying to impress. Maybe the SO is only awful when they're not around.

Only so much as it is okay to judge someone by any other company that they keep. A romantic relationship isn't special beyond the level of importance that it has to the people involved.

As a strong advocate against Guilt by Association I'd say no, don't judge someone based upon the company they keep, judge them based upon themselves. Now that does include certain things related to the company they keep, but it's not the same thing. Do they enable their SO to commit bad behaviour? Do they encourage the harmful things about their SO? Do they stand idly by while their SO hurts others? Are they uncaring about the pain that their SO causes in others?

Those are all good criteria to judge a person by, because it's all based on them. It avoids situation where you judge someone for trying to help a messed up person improve (though project person dating is never a good idea), or someone who is simply ignorant of what their SO is like (though wilful blindness is something that it's reasonable to judge someone on).

Also people will have their reasons, I know plenty of good people who've dated assholes for a variety of reasons, often enough they've been trapped in the relationship, felt they couldn't do better, thought they could change them, not know the truth.

You're on the outside looking in, without the facts on an individual it's hard to tell if they are an asshole or a good person, find out about them so you can judge them based on who they are, not who others are.

@Loni Jay: When I created the thread, yeah, I assumed that the person knew what kind of person their SO was. I'm not averse to talking about the other side of things though.

And this is really the most important question for me. Because it's hard for me to think they care in any meaningful way if they get with/stay with an SO who causes pain to others.

Have you never stayed close to someone you care about who does bad things while still not liking everything they do? I know plenty of bad people and the best hope many of them have of getting better is having someone in their life who pushes them to be better, if everyone who cared about the pain they cause walked out than they'd never stop.

So don't assume, find out. Hell they may be the one thing stopping the bad person from being even worse, you don't know unless you find out. Hell that's before you get into people who are also victims of such pain, plenty of those stick with their abusive partners because they see no way out, judging them to be an asshole alongside their partner does them no favours.

edited 15th Feb '15 5:00:45 PM by Silasw

Don't judge 'lest you be judged. Sure, it is from the Bible (I think) but it does sound like good advice.

That is because 'judging' implies you are predisposing yourself to have a certain attitude to a person without even talking to them, or knowing them enough. That is...ripe for assholery. Just assuming stuff from people.

For example let us suppose you meet the typical jerkass jock type of guy, so when you go meet his girlfriend is it ok to assume she is going to be a stupid dumb bimbo, or a pushover or blanket sub because she puts up with him? And is it ok for you to predispose yourself to treating her as whatever you assume she will be just on that assumption?

You can do it, sure. But seriously, at least give the person a shot before just going ahead and forming a consolidated judgment that will mold how you treat them.

It very much depends on what we mean by bad things. Like hurting themselves, no I'm not running away, I'm going to try to get them help. Hurting others without realizing it, I'm going to point it out. But hurting others who've done nothing to deserve it because that makes them feel better about themselves? No. I don't keep people like that in my life. I reward them with neither my time nor my companionship (and/or, in the case of a girlfriend, my sexuality).

Thinking about it from the perspectives of people who got hurt going up to a guy who is dating the girl who hurt them, and asking him, "Wait, you're dating her? She tripped me yesterday and laughed at the big bruise I have on my face today. Why would you contribute to her feeling good when she does these bad things? How can you claim you care and at the same time still make her life better when she's making other's lives worse?" I don't want to be on the receiving end of that conversation. Caring isn't difficult, but it does require effort to not just be a platitude.

I think there's a difference between judging and prejudice (or pre-judging). Judging is simply revising your expectations and acting accordingly. I figure if a girl doesn't care that her boyfriend is a bully, then she's a shitty kind of person and I don't want to be around her, so I don't spend time around her.

The question I was going for was whether this particular bit of information - the fact that a person dates a known victimizer (who generally treats their S.O. quite well) - is a good piece of evidence in reaching that conclusion.

"revising your expectations and acting accordingly" is still setting up an invisible barrier that you are already expecting the other person to fail anyways. You are not giving them the slightest chance.

I'm not sure how this is any more not "giving them the slightest chance" than saying the same about a bully. You're using information about a decision they make (in the bully's case that they're a bully, in the S.O.'s case, that they are in a romantic relationship with a bully) to determine what you think about them and how you'll act toward them.

I'm asking why the decision of dating a victimizer is seen (so far in this thread) to be less relevant with regard to how you see and respond to someone than the decision of victimizing.

Anyway, when I'm in the minority like I appear to be here, I like to point out that I'm honestly not trying to be dense here, and I may be missing something. Thanks to everyone for not getting openly snippy at me for what probably appears to be me just being thickheaded.

edited 16th Feb '15 1:59:21 PM by Vericrat

Here is the thing.

If you are planning to behave differently towards a person simply based on whom they are dating, you are setting yourself up for potential dissapointment, and treat a person based on your expectations. Certainly, the phrase "tell me who you go with and I will tell you who you are" definitely applies, it can give certain traits of a person but they may well be the wrong traits

For example, the case of the bully. Let's say the guy is the bully and the girl is dating.

So you witness the bully, Bob, and you are about to meet Alice, his girlfriend. Bob is an asshole. He stole candy from a baby, he asked the nerd for his lunch money and he voted for Ron Paul. Does this say that Alice is going to be a weakwilled pushover that Bob possibly hits when his eggs were fried instead of scrambled as he arbitrarily decided 3 seconds before she served them subserviently?

Yes, it is a possibility.

He might also be behaving as an exemplar right in front of her, for Alice is a church going, pious lady and he really wants her, but he knows she won't put up with his crap and thus does not behave like a bully in front of her.

She might also actually be a bully herself, and find common enjoyment with Bob in being a pair of Jerkasses.

She might also be indifferent to his actions, about to dump him quoting "I'm tired of your shit".

However, since you have already judged Alice as being a weakwilled pushover, you will approach her wide-eyed, cautiously, and talk to her in semi-code words as you check out her cheeks for bruises and ask for potential damage. Instead of looking up to you as an enlightened savior upon whom she can cry her fears and anguish, if it is any of the other cases she might just think you are weird, intrusive, or that you need to mind your own business.

The expectations things are dangerous. if you suspect things and want more evidence, then feel free but just one aspect won't do that.

That's fine, but your choice does not make the choices of many others who try and 'fix' such people automatically invalid.

Sure, but you're making a leap from "is willing to date him" to "doesn't care", that's a dangerous leap. I know plenty of people who've dated assholes, the kindest person I know spent much of her younger years running after the school dickhead heartbreaker.

Plus even if the SO doesn't treat them bad, that doesn't mean they don't have issues that keep them with that person, low self confidence and a feeling that that's the only person they had cause many people to stick with folks they should leave. Often a big thing that helps such people get over their issues is having friends who remind them that they don't need the asshole SO, however if everyone but the asshole SO has abandoned them why would they leave their SO when they have no way of knowing that they will find anyone (romantic or otherwise) if they leave them?

I actually think Vericrat is assume the "also an asshole bully" one not the "weak willed pushover" one, though your wider point stands, making any assumption is a foolish move. Find out what they are, don't just assume.

edited 16th Feb '15 2:18:31 PM by Silasw

I will state again that I am in no way discussing people trapped in abusive relationships. They are outside the scope of the conversation because I am very aware of the host of psychological and physical factors that keep them trapped, and there is no evidence there that "they like being abused" or "they like watching their partner abuse others"; it's more like, "they have been conditioned to flinch away from bad thoughts regarding their partner" and "they know if they try to leave they'll be subject to even more horrific violence."

So eliminating that possibility (if I see signs of it, I'll make myself available as someone she can come to if she wants intervention), that to me leaves a couple of possibilities. 1) Alice knows and doesn't care. 2) Alice knows and likes it. 3) Alice knows and doesn't like it but not enough to not leave. 4) Alice doesn't know.

Options 1 and 3 are similar enough to me that I think of Alice as repugnant. Option 2 likewise makes her repugnant (and even more so). Option 4 is the only one that isn't negative toward Alice, but also isn't complimentary.

I see your point about saying that you would need more evidence as a straight answer to my question though: You don't think that it's enough to conclude that Alice herself is someone you want to stay away from.

EDIT:

That's what I'm saying, I'm saying that their S.O. is a piece of evidence just like the bully's behavior is evidence of who they are.

edited 16th Feb '15 2:23:17 PM by Vericrat

Andthose were just examples mde up on the spot. Situated in context and with plenty of creative help from other people, I can promise you we could find dozens of different reasons why she would date a bully that will paint her in a negative, or positive light.

I can make up reasons for why the bully is doing what he is doing is complimentary (someone has a gun to his mom's head saying "Bully or she dies") but I don't find them likely enough to make the evidence of his actions to not be persuasive when deciding how to deal with him.

I don't think who you are dating is as strong a piece of evidence as what your direct actions are, but I seem to value it a lot more highly than you guys do.

I don't think option 3 is repugnant.

edited 16th Feb '15 2:28:35 PM by Quag15

5) Alive cares and is trying to get him to stop, 6) Alice cares but has other issues that mean she's not willing to leave him (that are not him being abusive), 7) Alice cares but knows that she is all that prevents him getting worse so doesn't want to leave him and have him get worse, 8) Alive cares but is putting up with his actions because she knows it's out of character for him and that he is going to return to form once [thing going on in his life] ends, 9) Alice knows some important information that you don't about what's going on, 10) Alice is a stupid teenage girl who needs time to grow up and realise things, 11) Alice 'knows' but doesn't actually understand the level of cruelty that he goes to, 12) Alice wants to leave him but doesn't have the mental strength to (perhaps becau8se all her friends have abandoned her due to her poor choice of partner...)

You're still making an important judgement (if someone is even worth consideration) on very little information (what you know about the character of someone they are dating), that's the problem.

Yes it's relevant information, but it is nowhere near enough information to make a good judgement, it's simply one bit of information that should go alongside other information to help make a judgement.

edited 16th Feb '15 2:37:17 PM by Silasw

I'm going to side with the OP on this one. Who somebody dates—or who someone is friends with even—may not tell you what they are like, but it does tell you what they are willing to tolerate. If you are willing to be friends/lovers with someone who is an absolute bastard to other people—or are too thick to notice that your friend/lover is an absolute bastard to other people—then I probably don't want to get to know you.

Can there be extenuating circumstances? Sure. Maybe the bastard is just having a particularly rough couple of weeks and isn't always like this. Speaking as a guy who once had a paranoid mental breakdown, I'm very glad my girlfriend didn't leave me during it. But since the OP's question doesn't assume that sort of situation—it assumes that we are talking about a longterm bastard here—it's not especially relevant.

There's also nothing wrong with judging people and I get tired of people acting like it's a bad word. You can misjudge people, and that's bad. You can prejudge people, and that's also bad. But there is nothing wrong with deciding, based on the information available. that you do not wish to associate with this person.

There's a girl I worked with who was racist, homophobic, and (hilariously enough) misogynistic. She talked about other girls (including my girlfriend's sister) behind their backs, bragged openly about sleeping with a guy solely to get drugs, and hit on every guy in the store, however age inappropriate. I am entirely comfortable with having judged her as someone I don't want to hang out with. I also feel entirely okay with not approaching her boyfriend of the moment, because while I may not have enough information to know exactly what he's like, I know that he's okay with dating somebody who holds the above opinions. I'm not going to pick a fight with him, or say rotten stuff about him to his friends, because I don't know him well-enough, but neither am I going to approach him and try to get to know him. There are other people who aren't dating a psycho, who I would rather try and befriend.