The existence of rat lines shows that at least the Nazis are forced to flee their home country because people were going after them. Shiro Ishii never even had to do that.

Wernher von Braun and the Nazis hired by Operation Paperclip were not even close in prominence and leadership level as someone like Shiro Ishii and Dr Mengele (who fled via the rat lines). Technically speaking Shiro Ishii was even higher up than Dr Mengele (the latter was a captain in charge of one concentration camp while the former is a general in charge of an entire military department responsible for human experimentation) and yet the latter was at least forced to run while the former was not even touched.

This is not an equal comparison.

edited 26th Nov '14 4:46:02 PM by IraTheSquire

You're getting hung-up on Mengele, who was a solitary sadist and fairly irrelevant in the Third Reich's human-experimentation program.

A lot of Nazi doctors who experimented on Jews did get away with it, IIRC one of the most commonly used anatomical textbooks was written by one, and a lot of German - and Polish and Czech - universities still don't like people asking too many questions about where the anatomical museum got all their specimens. Mengele is a slightly different case because his experiments were, by and large, scientifically worthless, whilst Ishii's research, unlike Mengele's, did actually lead somewhere. Mengele's lab was a sadist's playground, Unit 731 was a bioweapons factory. Ishii actually had something worth offering - if Mengele had offered something as "good" to the Allies as Ishii did^note Or, as good as the Americans thought it was; they actually learned very little., they'd have let him off the hook. We know this because they did it for others, notably just about the entire German anatomical profession, who had had no qualms using the corpses of murdered Jews and political prisoners during the war.

There's also the fact that the Japanese "sanitation units" were able to destroy most of their records and presence before being overrun by the Soviets. Unit 731 was not unique; the reason it is so infamous is because it was located at Harbin, in Heilongjiang in North-East China, and because it was attached to the Kantogun, the IJA's most largest and most prestigious Chinese command. Hence, the Soviets overran it before the Japanese could properly "clean up". There were others - Unit 100 further south in Changchun, the anatomy department at Kyushu University, Unit 1644 down in Nanjing. There could be hundreds of others we don't know about. The Americans "needed" Ishii to make sense of it, whilst Mengele, as I've already shown, was irrelevant to them.

You're also forgetting that the Allies and the German government effectively protected Mengele by arguing, against the evidence, that he was dead. It wasn't until 1959 that Simon Wiesenthal was able to convince the Israeli - not the German or American - governments to send the Mossad after him. Mengele was able to get a copy of his birth certificate from the German embassy in Buenos Aires in 1956, for crying out loud!

EDIT: To further back up 's point - don't forget the hundreds of German Army war criminals who were never charged so they could help set up the Bundeswehr and NVA.

edited 26th Nov '14 5:03:53 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei

The Ratlines were at least partly run by US intelligence agencies. Many of the people who escaped through them got very high and prestigious positions in US institutions involving military technology and things like NASA and the Moon landing.

Wernher von Braun was the leading German rocket scientist and head of the project that developed the V-2, for which he received decorations of the highest order.

Josef Mengele (there's no s) was the head doctor of one department of Auschwitz. That's a far lower position than von Braun's.

So I think my comparison stands. Sure, Mengele had to fee Germany; but von Braun, a war criminal much higher in Nazi hierarchy (and arguably responsible for more deaths than Mengele, depending on how much of the responsibility of the programmes he led can be attributed to him), was recruited into NASA and given a very high position there. He received multiple awards for his work with NASA. (I'm not saying he didn't earn them but getting such an important job instead of a war crimes trial and probable jail term or execution does go against what most war criminals could expect.)

edited 26th Nov '14 4:55:45 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

According to wikipedia von Braun was just a rocket scientist though, so I'm kind of wondering how much of the Nazi atrocities can be attributed to him. That said, he probably should have at least been on trial like Schindler did. So while bad, it isn't quite comparable with Shiro Ishii who was 1) a general (von Braun according to wikipedia was a sturmbanfuhrer, which is equivalent to "major") and 2) directly leading a unit that had been committing atrocities.

But the rest about Mengele (yes, I've even edited my posts way before you corrected me, thank you) I did not know (particularly about trying to convince others that he was dead). Interesting. Though I'd still say that the West still cared enough that in order to protect Mengele they have to be subtle about it. There's hardly any subtlety in protecting Ishii (if there is at all).

edited 26th Nov '14 5:18:10 PM by IraTheSquire

Von Braun designed the V-2s, but they were built by thousands of slaves. They killed more people in their construction than they did by being used. Meanwhile, Willow Run turned out a new B-24 Liberator every sixty-three minutes, twenty four hours a day, three-hundred-and-sixty days a year. So much for German efficiency.

If you want the German equivalent to Shiro Ishii, that would either be SS-Surgeon General Ernst-Robert Grawitz, head of the SS Medical Corps, or Erich Traub, who lead the German bioweapons research program at the Friedrich Loeffler Institute on Riems Island. Grawitz committed suicide - by grenade, no less - when Hitler refused him permission to flee Berlin, and its not known if he ever contacted the Western Allies, but Traub was picked up by the Americans during Paperclip.

edited 26th Nov '14 5:20:16 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei

Erich Traub is a lot more convincing.

edited 26th Nov '14 5:27:49 PM by IraTheSquire

By now this is a derail but since I bothered to look it up I might as well mention it: von Braun was the main designer of all of the A-series of rockets (the 4th of which is better known as the V2) and by the time the V2 was being designed and manufactured he was head of the facility that did it. (He even picked the site where the facility was built.) Thus all victims of the A-series of rockets (and their derivatives) could be said to be his responsibility, though obviously there are mitigating factors (such as the fact that he still had people higher up in the military approving his projects and telling him what they want and so on.)

Again this has gone off-topic but for what it's worth when it comes to responsibility for war crimes I think I've established that Western democracies were willing to rescue leading scientists and administrators of Fascist regimes in Europe and Asia alike to continue their work in the service of these Western powers. (Note that the USSR did the same thing.)

EDIT: As for the Mengele bits that you corrected in your edits, they weren't corrected when I started writing my mega-post but you must've edited them before I posted mine - getting ninja'd is a frequent occurrence for me when I write longer posts.

edited 26th Nov '14 5:25:52 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Well, yes and no. I don't know much about the Nazi bioweapon program, and I'm not certain if it ever employed methods as sadistic as Ishii's. Ultimately, the Allies wanted different things from Japan and Germany. They knew that their biological warfare program was ahead of Germany's, but that their rocketry was behind. They believed their biowar program was behind that of Japan's - who were by that time the only country to use biological weapons on a large scale, in China. Hence why they focused on one and the other.

I'm just unconvinced by the idea that Ishii was let off due to Allied racism towards the Chinese being more acute than their antisemitism. They were often quite happy to deny justice to victims to suit their purposes in a particular case. For Germany, it was rocket scientists, for Japan it was doctors.

edited 26th Nov '14 5:30:27 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei

Well, I'm not trying to convince anyone here that the special treatment of Ishii is due to racism either. My point was how the other Chinese would see it if they only have a shallow understanding of what happened with the Nazis and Dr Mongele (and I'm using him as an example because he was prominent enough - even having a nickname "the Angel of Death" - that people with a shallow understanding of WWII would probably heard of him like Goering etc). Because I sometimes think that sometimes people do not know what they sound like when they talk to people from other cultures.

It's not just about what you intend and what you believe: it's also how it sounds.

In other words: be careful.

edited 26th Nov '14 5:29:41 PM by IraTheSquire

Just to note, the lack of killing efficiency of German rocketry was in large part not because they weren't good killing machines, but because British intelligence had them shooting at empty fields in Kent for a lot of the war.

edited 26th Nov '14 5:30:40 PM by SilasW

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

You're probably right about the importance of what it looks/sounds like as opposed to what actually happened.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

@ Ominae

Thank you, though my issue is that, what exactly would Aquino's opinion be on the war crimes anyways?

In regards to comparing German war criminals to Japanese war criminals, would Shiro Azuma be Joachim Peiper's Japanese counterpart, given the fact, both were recording their shots at infamy (Rape of Nanking and Malmedy Massacre respectively); the only difference is that, the latter got himself killed while recording what happened at Malmedy, whereas the former succeeded.

To get back on topic, how did Abe meeting Jinping go? Bad or good?

I won't be surprised if he doesn't like the visits to the shrine, at least privately. But he sees Tokyo as a potential ally in countering any Chinese problems in the Spratlys. Not all the major politicians are gonna yank on Tokyo's chain if they did a major booboo 'cept for one time (Not sure when was this) when it joined ASEAN I condemning something. Not sure if this was the textbook revisions.

With Xi Jingping's meeting with Abe, reports mention that it went well.

About as well as could be expected. That is to say, awkward handshake, discussed nothing of importance, ended with vague promises of future talks and no issues settled. At least it has symbolic value in that the two sides have finally resumed high-level talks, though how long this thaw will last until the next incident is anyone's guess.

I also heard some stuff about setting or resetting a hotline between Beijing and Tokyo. Though like you said, it's anyone guess on how that's going to work out

Until the disease that is ultranationalism is cured, I don't know if the big three of East Asia will ever truly get along.

Makes me feel depressed, as again, I just see the three as throwing propaganda and hate rallies at each other to make themselves look superior to the others, while also trying to hide the void where the truth should be.

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48

Interesting conclusion that article draws:

I'd have thought the opposite would more likely be the case. The big divide in Taiwanese politics is "China vs Taiwan" - should Taiwan continue with its somewhat delusional claim to represent all China or is there now a distinct "Taiwanese" identity that would justify Taiwan declaring independence. The KMT are the big "ROC STRONK! All your Tibet are belong to us!◊" party in Taiwanese politics. Them losing badly is morely likely a sign of discontent and disconnection from Beijing. If China still cares about its soft power, it should take notice.

Schild und Schwert der Partei

What is the opinion in Taiwan over the protests amd how much do you guys think they effected the election?

Trump delenda est

According to some relatives, the younger generations have now been driven into action due to a general mindset of “reunification = Hong Kong” – the DPP and the Pan-Greens as a whole traditionally have struggled to cater to younger voters outside of their traditional power-base of Hokkien-speaking Taiwanese/ROC citizens.

China is once again sending artists to the countryside During Chairman Mao's heyday, he sent millions of young people to the countryside to learn from the masses.

Now in an echo of history, the State General Administration of Press, Publication, Radio, Film and TV, says artists, film directors and news presenters will be following the same well-trodden path.

The authorities say they will live in rural areas in order to "form a correct view of art".

I find it hilarious that the Chinese actually think their is a "correct" view of art.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.

And then the Chinese complain why they don't have some sort of cultural soft power...

edited 3rd Dec '14 2:30:38 PM by Quag15

What you mean artists don't like mindless conformity what blasphemy do you speak

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.

But if we let the artists do whatever, then the Communists win! ... wait...

/ Yeah...

edited 3rd Dec '14 3:43:46 PM by Quag15