Epic Rap Battles of Historyyyyyyy!

Washington pretended not to know that Jefferson was stabbing him in the back for the sake of keeping this otherwise brilliant man at his post where he could channel his better qualities for the good of the nation, until one of Jefferson's letters that all but said Washington was a senile old moron found it's way into the newspapers. Jefferson's pathetic attempt at damage control was to say that wasn't exactly what he said. Washington never spoke to Jefferson again.

I loved Ramsay Vs Child

edited 30th May '16 1:53:49 PM by CobraPrime

I know barely anything about the Hamilton musical, I just know that him and Jefferson butted heads and hated each other.

Also, Parable, what specific things was Jefferson undermining?

To be fair, it's a bit difficult to side with Jefferson in the latest rap battle considering that he himself essentially gives up and starts apologising in his second verse.

Less an apology and more of a politician covering his ass.

Ramsay vs Child had some good digs and was a good battle on its own merits, but it wasn't quite on the same level as Martin vs Tolkien to my mind.

I'm not American and I know jack about D Ouglas and E Dison. Is that battle still worth the watch?

The Jefferson-Douglass battle is worth it just to see Jefferson's pedestal broken. The simplest things you need to know about Douglass is that he was an abolitionist who escaped from slavery, learned to read and write, and became a writer and public speaker who voiced for an end to slavery and suffrage for African-Americans.

Is the oposite for me, Martin for Tolkien look like fans arguing what writer is best instead of rap battle, compare with Ramsey vs Child have good diss and REALLY good beat.

On one hand, I don't know how much we can blame him for those views, considering that everyone at the time thought the same way. Even Abraham Lincoln, whose presidency came half a century later, is on record saying that he in no way supported "negro equality".

On the other hand, it is really disingenuous to say all that while still claiming to support the idea that "all men are created equal".

To be fair, wasn't wholeheartedly supporting absolute "negro equality" still a political suicide in Lincoln's time?

Yes. That particular quote comes from a speech he made in an area of Illinois that was hostile to abolition. Worth noting that Lincoln was subsequently assassinated because of his speech detailing his plan to start giving blacks citizenship and voting rights.

Off the top of my head, Jefferson wanted to openly support the French Revolution, even though the American ambassador was already describing in detail the bloodbath that was erupting and how desperate people slated for execution were begging for asylum at the US consulate. Washington said no, so Jefferson encouraged the French ambassador to go over Washington's head and appeal to the people. It was only after that guy started organizing Americans for the war did Jefferson backtrack.

When it looked like war with England was near, Washington managed to secure a treaty of peace. Jefferson opposed it and organized his cronies in Congress to vote against it. Washington really needed this treaty passed because he knew the nation needed at least 20 years to grow before it could survive another war. War of 1812 broke out exactly 20 years after he said this, and the country barely got out of that intact.

Jefferson tried to sabotage any attempts at normalizing ties with Britain after the Revolution by dragging his heels in communication with official British representatives. In this case he is just flat out not doing his job.

Washington believed that the nation's future was in commerce and manufacturing and encouraged growth in those areas, Jefferson responded by attacks in the press by proxie belittling these plans as un-Americans and a betrayal of the agricultural utopia of small farmers he envisioned for the nation. Might be worth noting that ultimately the Washingtonian half of the country prevailed over the Jeffersonian half during the Civil War.

Jefferson's lackies in the press accused Washington of being a secret monarchist scheming to return the nation to British rule. When they weren't accusing him of treason they were dismissing him as senile and stupid.

All this might have been excusable if it had come from an open political opponent, but Jefferson was Washington's secretary of state. When Washington needed his support the most Jefferson said one thing and did another.

edited 30th May '16 2:44:45 PM by Parable

Yeah, in retrospect, I'm completely flabbergasted why Jefferson is held in such high esteem.

Because Jefferson was famous for championing the ideal and morality of the small farmer, and for most of U.S. history it was a nation of small farmers. Even with the Industrial Revolution, the majority of the U.S. was farmland, up until right around 1950, when the idea of suburbia kicked into overdrive and transformed the economy.

It wasn't like these people really had any alternatives (or at least, felt they had any), so naturally they flocked to the one person who preached in their favor; Jefferson, even if it meant they had to overlook (or in some cases, embrace) his racist hypocrisy.

Indeed, despite being a rich plantation owner, Jefferson was very much the "people's president". The main problem is that "the people" have grown beyond what Jefferson envisioned as people.

Douglass kicked Jefferson's ass, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Jefferson's performance was easily better. Douglas "won" because he steered the battle into white guilt and slavery.

Well slavery was kinda Douglass's thing.

My only problem with that battle is that Jefferson did give up in the second verse. Similar occurrence in Lecter vs Jack the Ripper, where Lecter funny enough points out that Hannibal spent his entire first verse fellating himself, before going on the offensive in the second.

And Batman v Sherlock was terrible for Batman until Robin showed up and actually made legit points against Holmes and Watson.

I liked Douglas's verses better, but I think I have something for calm fury. I wonder if Washington wouldn't be a better person to knock off the pedestal since he seems to have more of it, but that perception might just come from listening to the Hamilton sound track like 60 times. Also for the person asking about non-Americans up there. It's pretty good but I'm Canadian so I have some context, like I know who Douglass and Jefferson are pretty well.

Washington was already in a Rap Battle with William Wallace, I don't know if they'd bring him back. Either way, it made more sense to use Jefferson. He's the guy who wrote the Declaration of Independence, and yet he was a complete hypocrite and obstructionist. Hell, the guy vaguely reminds me of some of today's politicians with his undermining of presidential authority. Washington wasn't perfect by any means (he was a slave holder like Jefferson after all, and a kind of so-so military commander), but he set precedence for what a President could and could not do in office. Hell, he had the possibility of continuing on as President, but he decided the country didn't need another ruler for life, so he gave a big speech and left for his home in Virginia. There's a reason why Washington is considered an American Cincinnatus.

Oh okay, he was done. I guess Jefferson makes more sense than. I don't think I watched the William Wallace one. Oh true you don't have treasonous actions and such to his name and he didn't rape any slave women that we know of, Jefferson has a horrible moral legacy and didn't declare "All men are created equal" so comes across less of a hypocrite (also didn't they have some stuff about not being slaves meaning not a colony well owning slaves?). The American what?

Cincinnatus. He was this Roman farmer who was made a dictator (which back then was a guy with absolute power appointed only during a time of crisis) and saved Rome from a war. They wanted to make him their supreme ruler, but he humbly retired back to the farm.

And yes, Jefferson said "All men are created equal". He wrote it in the Declaration. His legacy actually fell apart in the 1800's during the rise of the abolition movement. I actually read a paper in my American Lit written by abolitionist Dave Walker that refuted Jefferson's talk in his Notes on the State of Virginia about African-Americans being inferior to white people. Jefferson even tried to offer a "solution" to slavery by shipping all the black people to Santo Domingo. It was James Monroe who ended up doing something similar by setting up the country of Liberia (hence the capitol being called Monrovia).

Sorry, I like talking about history, apologies if this is coming off as rambling

Cincinnatus was a career politician for much of his whole life. Yeah, he owned a farm, but so did most patricians. The Farmer bit comes from Livy who wrote (roughly 500 years later) that when he Cincinnatus chosen as dictator (He had since retired having been a successful consul, think Roman Co-President), he was plowing his field when he was told the news. It helps the whole "duty minded aristocrat who didn't seek power" image, But odds are Cincinnatus was past plowing his own fields. He'd also have been pushing 60.

Ironically, people often forget Cincinnatus actually came out as retirement to be Dictator twice. Both times gave up the post as soon as his job was done to go back to his apocryphal farming.

edited 30th May '16 8:08:55 PM by Ghilz

Ah, did not know that. I've just heard Washington compared to Cincinnatus quite often due to his farewell to the presidency after two terms.