General Autism Discussion

why?

It's not passing the buck. It's saying, I don't have the ability to deal with it.

Yeah he does not sound like the kind of person who has ever been shown boundaries. So how is he going to respect them? The consequences for acting like an asshole, unwittingly or not, is to be TREATED like an asshole: not invited, not extended invitations to activities, not well received. It is not a "Oh but he has ASD he needs accomodations for him", that is the thing, the accomodations are consequences for his actions that he can know why they are important to respect.

If he continues to be coddled and treated and given milkshake prizes for just showing up he is just going to do the same again and again and again. Just "explaining him nicely" is the equivalent of patting your dog after he made a hole in the yard and telling him in a cute cuddly voice "No no no! Don't do that again, sweetums!"

You do not have to be angry at him to tell him "No, Joe. We do not want you here because every time you are invited you do this, and this, and this. Yes, I am apalled at your behavior as of late but I do not hate you." There is no need to scream, shout or curse at his bloodline to say this point.

Sometimes people need incentive to change and sometimes the best thing you can do for someone is to stop enabling them. It's to cut them off. You needto give them concequenves or they have no reason to even try to learn.

I agree that he needs to have his unintentional asshole behavior rejected and punished. But it needs to be followed up with an explanation as to what he did wrong, how he was an asshole, etc. Otherwise it's likely he'll continue to not learn.

I seriously doubt this guy hasn't gone through life being rejected by damn near everyone until he found some people willing to put up with him. So "just reject him" is redundant advice. "Tell him what he's doing wrong and what he should do instead" combined with "don't put up with asshole behavior" seems the best solution.

I did mention he had to be preferably specified why he was being considered an asshole. After that if he decides to change or ask, is up to him. But friends are not supposed to be your therapists or social behavior counselors.

No body owes him anything. The dude is 23. He's autistic, not mentally disabled. If he hasn't gotten it through his head he's being an asshole and no one can stand him, no one can really help him, even a professional.

That whole, "Can't solve a problem until you feel it's a problem" thing is true even for the developmentally disabled.

You would be surprised.

In the Neuro Activity clinic I go to one of the patients is a 27 year old man.

Gabrael, just because they haven't realized or solved their problems yet, doesn't mean they don't deserve help.

edited 1st Dec '14 12:20:48 PM by SaintDeltora

@Gabrael: While it varies depending on the individual, some autistics really are clueless. You'd be amazed at this one person I met online who was clingy, anal (about cursing), and obsessed with poop while not understanding what was wrong with his behavior. His behavior was totally bonkers, and consistently so. And he did NOT get the obvious, even when I tried pointing out what he was doing wrong. He just seemed to degenerate more and more over time.

Yes, some autistics really don't get it and need to be explicitly taught. To a degree, it's part of the condition.

edited 1st Dec '14 12:21:50 PM by BonsaiForest

Yeah. And I bet he's there because he feels he's getting something from treatment. (Or court order, I'm open to either.)

This isn't a child, this is a grown man. You can't force him to do anything but you can decide not to engage with him until he changes just like anyone else.

And again, that is not the general public's problem. That is the problem of his family and friends should they chose to intervene. Otherwise, what I said above still stands.

edited 1st Dec '14 12:23:42 PM by Gabrael

Gabrael, I imagine his life is full of people who decided to "not engage with him". It's part of why autistics go through life being rejected left and right - not understanding social cues, not just the whole "not fitting in due to being weird" thing, but having a hard time with social interaction. If no-one explains it to them or helps them out because the people don't see a disability but instead just see an asshole or weirdo or freak, then the person just gets rejected and rejected and rejected and doesn't learn.

NOT BEING ABLE TO EASILY LEARN SOCIAL SKILLS IS PART OF THE DISABILITY OF AUTISM. "easily" varies depending on the person. This guy is 23 and doesn't get things that were obvious to me at a younger age, and I'm someone who was non-verbal until getting early intervention at age 3. Every autistic is different.

If his few friends abandon him, he'll just be alone and upset. Like he likely has been many times in the past. And still won't have learned why.

"(Or court order, I'm open to either.)"

Gabrael, please, don't make assumptions about my acquaitances.

He is getting something from that in fact, his way of walking when we first met was incredibly stiff and rigid, it has gotten a lot smoother lately.

"This isn't a child, this is a grown man. You can't force him to do anything but you can decide not to engage with him until he changes just like anyone else."

It doesn't matters if he is a child or not, he still needs help.

Also,

AGAIN: NOT OUR PROBLEM!

Getting all caps with me isn't changing the point. Fixing someone should be left to professionals. If friends/family wants to point out a problem and direct them to proper treatment, then they have that right.

If they say this is beyond our control, then they also have that right.

But no one is obligated to hold the hand of an adult regardless of their condition and say, "No no, that's not what you do." and unless that person agrees with them and says, "Yes, this is something I want to do different" then shit ain't gonna happen.

Calm down everyone, or I'll call down a Mod. And this one doesn't ride a scooter.

edited 1st Dec '14 12:34:30 PM by Greenmantle

Edited because .

edited 1st Dec '14 12:34:52 PM by SaintDeltora

Id say that the person should tell Joe what he's doing wrong, but they're under no obligation to act as his teacher when it comes to what's an acceptable way to act in society.

It would certainly be nice if they'd take Joe under their wing, but they're under no obligation to, charity cases are charity cases, not obligations.

The person writing in seams to have issues with telling someone that they've done wrong, how on earth did it take him an entire evening to say "Joe, I’m talking to someone else now. Enough."? It's one bloody sentence, it's not that hard to string together. Say no to the guy's crazy requests and tell him that it's inappropriate for him to make such requests, the rest is on him.

Social actions have social consequences, if Bob feels the need to exclude Joe from activities than that's his right, he should let Joe know why he's doing that but he doesn't have to compromise his happiness to cater to someone who is not his responsibility.

Now if Bob knows someone who is responsible for Joe as it were (family, close friends ect..), I'd suggest telling them that Joe needs someone to teach him social rules and that they might want to.

Also I disagree with the consistent need to teach the same lesson. ASD people aren't stupid, we don't inherently understand social rules but if someone takes the time to tell us that X is a social rule than the rest is on us, if someone has told you that doing X breaks the societal rules and you do it again that's on you, because you now know that that action is wrong and have chosen to do it again anyway.

I'm with Gab on this one, this guy is 23, with a diagnosis and nobody has bothered to explain basic social rules to him? Someone somewhere has screwed up when it comes to this guy.

"I'm with Gab on this one, this guy is 23, with a diagnosis and nobody has bothered to explain basic social rules to him? Someone somewhere has screwed up when it comes to this guy."

Hence why it's all the more important for someone to help him.

Yes, but that duty is not on casual acquaintances/friends, it's on the professional that diagnosed him, his parents and others who are responsible for him.

I've helped my fair share of messed up people in messed up places mentally, I'm very proud of that. But that has never been my responsibility, frankly I'd be offended if anyone suggest that it was. I made a choice to do something nice to someone I have no responsibility for, I didn't do it because it was my duty to, I did it because I chose to put someone else's happiness above my own. If doing such things was my duty than I wouldn't be doing anything special by doing what I do, but it's not my duty, it's something I chose to do and that's a big part of what makes it special.

I see.

It seems like we are in an unreconcillable (Did I spell that right?) conflict of values here, to me, if someone can help, even in the most minor ways, then they are obliged to do so, unless they already know, in advance, that someone will help them better then them, which doesn't seem to be the case here since, as you pointed out, seemingly no one came up to explain his problems.

While you are of the opinion that there are certain "rules" that one must follow here, similarly to how a courtroom can indicate to higher courts in case they can't settle a case, and I just don't see the point in that.

Did I got that right?

It's not that I feel there are certain rules, I just disagree with you on how far the obligation to help goes. To me it extends only to not actively harming a person, now that includes withholding from them information for self improvement (like the fact that they are being excluded from the group for breaking X societle rule), but that's it. I don't think an individual is obligated to self sacrifice for others. I feel that that belif devalues such self sacrifices, which should be acknowledged as someone going beyond what they are obliged to do. Such self sacrifices are something special, they should be treated as such.

Now when it comes to rules, I perfectly understand not knowing social rules, but once you know the rules you have a choice to obey or break them, that choice is on you. Understanding/agreeing with the why of the rules existence isn't needed, I don't understand why the speed limit is what it is, but if I break it that's on me. Now if I want to break the speed limit anyway so as to make a statment about its absurdities that's fine, but thats a choice I make and it should be treated as such.

>Phone

I don't see a simple "This is what you are doing wrong, this is how you can make it right" as self-sacrifice though. At least, no moreso then helping someone with their math homework.

It seems line we won't ever agree with this, agree to disagree?

Nor do I, that's why I explicitly said that I think people should explain to a person what they've done wrong, that's what I've been saying since the beginning.

What I take issue with is the idea that he has to keep inviting the guy to social functions when he doesn't want him there, or that he has to act as a mentor and teach the guy the ins and outs of social rules. That stuff isn't his duty.

>Phone

I never said he should be a mentor to him?

All that I Stated from the beggining is that he should find a way to help him. Be it by telling him what he did wrong in Amy particular activity, be it by using any other means he feels like using, I just want him to be helped.

It doesn't hás to come from a mentor.

edited 1st Dec '14 2:02:17 PM by SaintDeltora

It is not a "Every Man for Himself" attitude to not provide immediate help to those who need it. If they request help ,and you know them as a friend or family then yeah I would say there is some sort of obligation to him. But to someone completely oblivious to the pain he can cause to him/herself, not to notice this is not a sign of poor empathy or simple lack of social skills: he simply does not care, and there is no helping those who do not want to help themselves.

If this Joe is seeking help, then by all means, as a friend one can point him out in the right direction. If this friend Joe is acting like that and is neither suffering the consequences for his behavior, nor does he care to change them or notice the pain he is causing others, then no one owes him anything more than a big "Fuck off", really.

ASD do not suffer from less capacity to feel their own pain, ask for help, or anything. This "joe" sort of situation really points me out to a severe deficiency in empathy...which is more akin to severe brain damage, sociopathy, or narcissism rather than ASD.

Problem that I contend with the idea is "if you are in any extent to help, you should" plan is that it is simply not psychologically healthy nor feasible. Go out the street. How many little things could you do for those around you? Can you feed the stray, starving dogs, clean the streets, do the laundry for the old widow who can barely carry it herself, visit old people at the nursery, and babysit for free? Really, it is not your responsibility but you can do those things to help. You don't.

Because you would go insane if you had to.

ASD do not suffer from less capacity to feel their own pain, ask for help, or anything.

I hear otherwise when it comes to the "ask for help" thing. Some of it is likely not recognizing what exactly the problem is, or knowing there is help available. Some of it, from people who have been harmed many times by others, is likely "learned helplessness", or lack of trust.

I don't know the full situation, but it could well be that Joe doesn't know how to solve the problem. Someone should at least point him in the right direction.

Maybe I should tell the story of the one and only person I ever blocked - he was an autistic who was totally screwed up and in serious need of help, but didn't seem to understand the simple instruction of "stop". It's a long story, but probably worth telling.

edited 1st Dec '14 2:36:35 PM by BonsaiForest

Talk, I like stories.

Mind if I continue talking with you tomorrow? Once I can use my PC?

edited 1st Dec '14 2:39:00 PM by SaintDeltora