General Autism Discussion

I read Pretending To Be Normal back when I was first diagnosed at 15.

I dislike those guys, the "Austism makes us ze ubermensh" crowd, they're an embarrassment to the cause.

Anyway, I tend to take the middle road where this is concerned.

edited 26th Aug '14 10:33:36 PM by rmctagg09

Or using their ASD as an excuse for mistakes or just generally being an asshat.

I've only told like one person i know about my asperger's and it's someone i was very intimate with and trusted implicitly. i generally don't see a point because i'd rather not have people treat me any differently just because of a label. then again my asperger's is pretty mild so whatever, maybe it'd be helpful for others.

What did you think of Pretending to be Normal?

And yes, obviously we need to understand society's rules and adapt to them. But at the same time, it really is oftentimes us trying our damndest to meet them 100% of the way, reaching them instead 95% of the way, and them bitching about that missing 5%. "Why don't you look at me?" (Because looking you in the eye makes it difficult for me to concentrate on what you're saying) "Why do you walk funny/look funny/look a little odd?" (because we don't naturally have the same body language as most people, and have to try to consciously force that body language, making it harder for us to concentrate on other things and making it harder to get things done)

We need to understand them, yes. They also need to understand us. To understand concepts like "social fatigue" (how faking normalcy takes a toll on the person and leaves them exhausted), and the eye contact thing.

Because let's face it: the reality is that most autistics, according to polls and surveys, do not hold down jobs, and often do get fired due to social prejudice and lack of understanding/accepting. And that's even though the autistics are trying their damndest to be "normal" and fit in.

Pointing that out isn't elitism or being lazy. It's acknowledging a problem, and we do what we can from our end, but apparently, our best isn't enough. They also need to understand us.

I'm glad that there are organizations that are trying to help, companies trying to hire autistics for genuine competitive reasons instead of just to be nice, and things like that, but they are few and far between. But it is helping, and I've encountered at least one person who said she was helped by such an organization, and loves her job.

About the "Social Fatigue" thing, I found a good way to describe it is that you basically need to play a role all the time when you're in public. Like, playing a part in a play where you don't really understand the character. And I'm not even that good at it. I'm a bit lucky in that I wear hearing aids. I've been told the thought process people tend to have is "That guy seems a little weird. Why? Oh, he's wearing hearing aids, that must be it."

On another note, my counselor has given me some homework. I'm supposed to find a social group directed towards people on the spectrum in Toronto and see what it's like, but I don't know how to look.

edited 28th Aug '14 7:47:55 AM by Zendervai

Yes, exactly. It's 24/7/365 acting. If other people understood that, it would help.

I've noticed that minorities tend not to get their problems solved unless they become very visible. If you had a life-threatening food allergy decades ago, people wouldn't understand it at all. Nowadays, there are at least attempts by schools to teach and explain what it is. Sometimes it helps (kids understand the condition and try to accommodate the classmate with the food allergy), sometimes it hurts (bullying of kids with food allergies is common), but the problem is recognized and acknowledged, and I expect it to get better with time.

Gays didn't start getting treated better until they came out in large numbers, admitting to people who knew them that they were gay. Otherwise, it was playing a role - not 24/7/365, but faking being straight. Which has taken its toll on many gays, resulting in suicides. Now, while coming out can result in being disowned by the family or harassed in school or the workplace, it also, cumulatively, is helping gays in general.

Autism being more commonly recognized (regardless of whether it is or is not rising) will likely have more positive benefits for us in the long run. It's starting to. Like I said before, portrayals of it on TV are getting more realistic and are helping. The Temple Grandin movie, while clearly the story of a genius, still helps, and it's great that it exists. And with some companies going out of their way to employ autistics (if the pay's good enough, I'm in!!! I don't get paid that much at my current boring job), things are getting better. So let's not pretend that things can't improve. Still, let's also not pretend that there aren't real problems. If we can somehow get others to understand us (and the media and other organizations are helping), then eventually, we won't have to act 24/7/365 and risk getting rejected/fired/targeted for abuse anyway (because let's face it: for most of us, our acting isn't perfect), and will be treated a lot better.

I also don't know how to look. I looked on meetup.com but couldn't find anything useful in my area - stuff for "young adults", but that means what, early 20s? I'm 33. I found some "autistic friends" group around my area, but the website didn't inspire confidence - it played sappy music and was loaded with horrible animated GIFs - was it designed by an intellectually disabled lower-functioning person? Painful. I'm looking for Aspies. Searching the word "autism" is not the best idea, as most anything dealing with "autism" is likely to deal with people who I have little in common with and can't relate to. The word "Aspergers" may be in the process of being phased out, but it's really the best word to use.

edited 28th Aug '14 8:07:27 AM by BonsaiForest

@Thelostcup: I agree with some of what you're saying, but really disagree with a lot of what you seem to be implying.

Just what I've been saying. I agree. That would be best for all of us.

But then you say things like this:

I suspect that in many cases, the people who feel defeated often are people who'd been fired from their 12th job and are looking for their 13th, wondering when they'll get fired again simply for looking funny. People who know they have autism, are trying their best to fit in, and are chronically unemployed as a result. I've read the comments sections of news stories about autism, and I see some of the saddest, scariest stories out there. From a guy whose boss started harassing him upon learning he had autism, to someone who used to be homeless and is at risk of becoming homeless again.

These people are trying to fit in. And it's not working. Which is why the suggestions you listed above are so important.

Now, are there lazy defeatists who don't want to do anything? Yes, and I'm sure such exist in every group. But that doesn't take away from the fact that there are major serious problems that many if not most autistics do face, and we're talking about ones who work their asses off to fake normalcy... and it doesn't work.

I think what they're basically saying here is that autism shouldn't be stigmatized and that autistics should have the chance to work and advance themselves. If you're very talented, but no-one will hire you, or they won't keep you for long, then your talent will go unused. They're not saying "do nothing because you're a genius and life should hand things to you." They're saying "give us the chance to do what we can." Yes, a few tireless geniuses made it despite everything holding them back. But if more opportunity was available, then more people would be able to use their talent.

And that's the problem as I see it. Lack of understanding, and stigma, and abuse make it harder for hardworking autistics to advance in life. There are many stories I've seen, and even been told, of autistics whose coworkers stole credit for their work and moved up by socialing and being buddies with the boss while the autistic got left behind. "I see people who work less hard than me get moved up all the time while I stay in the same job and don't even get paid more" is common.

With more opportunities, autistics would be able to get jobs and be judged based on what they actually do, and not get fired due to prejudice, due to looking "weird and creepy", etc. In other words, actually being rewarded for hard work, instead of punished by having a disability.

edited 28th Aug '14 8:21:25 AM by BonsaiForest

It was a very interesting book.

Hold on a second. 'Bullying kids because of their food allergies is common '. I have never heard of this. I've met a lot if people with food allergies , usually milk or nuts, and I have never heard of his sort of problem . I myself am lactose intolerant

edited 28th Aug '14 11:16:39 AM by Xopher001

What was the author's experiences like? What stuck out to you about the book?

I read some of the reviews of it on Amazon. Some of the reviews came from high-functioning autistics who said that they themselves try their best to act normal, to pretend to be normal, and they still have serious problems. Some have suggested that the author is even higher-functioning than most high-functioning autistics if she's able to fake normalcy to such a high degree that people don't suspect anything is different about her (I have read that that is more common with females).

Regarding bullying kids for food allergies, you must be in a very tolerant place, and I think that's great. But I have also seen reports on food allergy bullying being common, on kids who are sent to the emergency room for an allergic reaction telling the doctors/nurses there that they are bullied for their allergies. Things like that.

I'd like to know hard numbers. I'd like to know how such hard numbers can be gained. Hell, if I had enough money, there is a major survey I'd love to conduct. Because believe me, I want to know a lot of things.

You'll have to forgive me since it's been more than seven years since I read it and therefore I've forgotten most of the details, but one thing that did stick out to me was when she was talking about how autistics tend to learn social rules by rote (Which was how my childhood went), rather than by social empathy like most NT's tend to.

This is also the first time I've heard of "food allergy bullying."

I suppose I'll just add, for the record, that I don't even bother trying to act normal. (Partly because nobody ever told me "you should act more normal," so I never got the idea into my system.) As such, I've met plenty of supportive peers who have said "You're so cool/funny/whatever" and quite a few malicious ones who absolutely hated me or just avoided me altogether.

And, with the "not even trying" thing, the friends I do have are a lot more supportive and more genuine overall. And that's a very good thing.

So if you can handle the social push-back, I'd say the supportive people outweigh the rest. Don't bother trying to be normal.

edited 28th Aug '14 11:35:11 AM by AwSamWeston

Oh yeah I had to do that too. It was annoying as hell. 'Xopher, shake her hand' 'Smile Xopher' 'Stand up straight' my mom occasionally would even kick me in the back of the shin if she thought I was forgetting social edicate (subtly of course)

Whenever I talk to my therapist this she takes moms side

edited 28th Aug '14 11:37:47 AM by Xopher001

@Aw Sam Weston: That sounds great. I see people who I strongly think are putting up a front and faking being something they're not (like my brother's obsession with being an "alpha male" and faking confidence and snobbery), that it makes me wonder what kinds of people they'll attract - people who don't like who they really are? People who only like the image? A relationship built upon pretending to be something you're not can't be satisfying. A recent Cracked article was about why so many comedians suffer depression, and part of it is that they feel that people don't like the comedian for who they really are; people instead like the "clown" image. But when you want people who like you for who you are, people who are there for you, suddenly having spent much of your life projecting a false image backfires horribly.

I wish you the best of luck. Especially in getting a job with a boss who likes you for who you are and will accept you. It makes me wonder, what are the best jobs for autistics? The ones that are stable, decent-paying, and compatible with the autistic's personality/thinking? While there are horrifying statistics and anecdotes alike on employment prospects for autistics, the whole world isn't like that; good jobs have gotta be out there.

@Xopher 001: Oh, behaviorism. I really fucking hate it. I get what they're trying to do - society can be very unforgiving to people it doesn't understand, and they're trying to make sure that you understand the major rules. It makes sense.

I just hope they're not trying to stifle unimportant things, or things you have little control over; THAT is when behaviorism can become harmful.

edited 28th Aug '14 11:56:45 AM by BonsaiForest

Well, sometimes your mother is simply right and you are simply wrong. Then the therapist should take the right side.

New Jersey, my home state, and the US state with the highest diagnosed rate of autism spectrum conditions (1 in 45, versus 1 in 68 nationwide), has passed a law aimed at getting support for adults on the spectrum.

This is important, as so many people think of autism as something that only happens to kids (notice that nearly all discussion of autism involves "autistic children", and very little involves adults, and you can see why). Support for people with disabilities tends to dry up when they turn 21.

Click that link and look at the photograph btw. Some of those autistics sitting in seats look, well, like stereotypes. It makes me wonder what autistics were mistakenly diagnosed with in the past.

A study was recently done that claims rates of autism have not changed (or have changed by 0.1%) between 1990 and 2010. But no article I've read (and I clicked on article after article) actually explains how they know this information. So I'm not sure whether to believe it yet or not.

Of course, it clashes with the famous "autism is rising rapidly" narrative (of which I do think the "rapid" rise is really due to better diagnosis and understanding), and when I see the stories about rises of autism in places like Silicon Valley and towns with lots of engineers in the population, it makes me wonder.

But unless I know their methodology, I can't say if this new "it's not rising at all" study is true or not.

edited 28th Aug '14 1:58:31 PM by BonsaiForest

I suspect because they didn't find a rise in statistics.

If you link me to your study, I'll try and track it down for you.

I feel like I've said this before but

Often I feel like I won't be able to discuss things I like to think about with the people around me. Like , do you think the average 18 year old is able to understand things like existentialism , cosmology , or postmodernism ?

I've noticed that sometimes. I have a couple friends I can talk about those things with, mostly because at the university I went to, philosophy classes are mandatory, but usually I run into the problem where people absolutely refuse to even think about politics or religion unless you're reaffirming their positions.

That's why you should never talk about politics , religion or the Great Pumpkin

I think the idea that there is such a thing as an 'average' 18 year old is a myth.

More seriously, it depends on people's cultural and education background, you'll likely find such people more at university level just because by that point the place is big enough that you're drawing from enough different backgrounds you'll find someone with an interest is everything.

Socially-assistive robots help kids with autism learn by providing personalized prompts

So does anyone have issues with voice control here? I have to have it pointed out when i yell ya know.....