General Autism Discussion

Something a bit more theoretical: Researchers have ditched the autism-vaccine hypothesis. Here’s what they think actually causes it.

I don't like that title, it makes it seem like the vaccine hypothesis was at one point scientifically viable. As a research scientist, gimmicky titles instantly turn me away from articles tbh.

It gets worse quickly. First sentence:

"Of all the issues doctors have explored in children’s health, none has been more exhaustively researched than the question of whether vaccines are linked to autism."

That's not just wrong, it's stupid. Really? More than, say, birth defects? Learning disabilities? The effect of poverty?

"“We can say with almost as much certainty than anybody could ever say that vaccines don’t cause autism,”

Well, ok, at least they get that right.

edited 29th Dec '17 5:23:13 PM by DeMarquis

I would not be surprised, actually, if there was more research put into this than in other childhood problems. Them conspiracy theories and controversies tend to draw attention on themselves.

That would be past sad and into crimminal neglegence territory. Fortunately, I don't think it's true (try Google Scolaring each of those terms).

I've been to enough biomedical conferences in the past 5 years to know that even bringing up the vaccine-autism thing as a topic worthy of research would have gotten you laughed out of the place. We don't have limitless resources. We're not going to waste our time on things that have already been disproved repeatedly. I'm offended on behalf of my field that people think that the vaccine-autism thing was ever a valid hypothesis. The only reason the hypothesis even came about was through Wakefield's completely fudged experiments (and, as it turns out, making up results gets your medical license revoked!) It was never serious science. It was joke science backed up by the correlation-causation fallacy and hysterical parents who "just know"

edited 30th Dec '17 8:20:33 AM by Cailleach

Well, I'd say "faked" not "fudged" and "bogus" not "joke" but yes.

The more time you spend in the research sciences the more you realize that popular media is your enemy. Putting words in your mouth and stealing your results and publishing them before you've even verified them. Luckily I work in an area now that the media isn't that interested in (unless people start looking for the big pseudomona scoop), but I can just imagine the hell that people who work in areas like autism research have to go through

How do you end up going to so many biomedical conferences?

And I agree, the popular media is awful when it comes to detail and nuance. Whenever they talk about a subject I have personal experience with, they make mistakes both small and large. Lack of nuance pisses me off. Especially when it's about something important. Like autism and cryptocurrencies (lots of people are pouring their money into them without having a clue of what they're doing, and I worry for the ones who are poor or taking out massive loans and doing that).

I also know full well they misrepresent scientific discoveries all the time. I've also seen articles go back and forth on, say, whether or not coconut oil or eggs are unhealthy. Sometimes based on the flimsiest of evidence.

With The Good Doctor, autistic protagonists finally have the freedom to be jerks.

Buuuut, it's not quite what it sounds like!

Ya know, I've also at times fully known the rules and disagreed with them, particularly if they were social rules whose existence I found unimportant. I've done it as a kid, I've done it as an adult.

(I once read an autistic man saying that his dad once told him, "Don't break the rules just because you don't understand them. Only break them if you understand them and think they're wrong." This was well before he was diagnosed with autism, so his dad must have noticed his tendency to frequently not understand and/or not follow rules, and knew that the two were not the same thing.)

Interestingly, this writer also says that due to Shaun Murphy being estranged from abusive parents, it doesn't turn into a show about how autism affects families, but about how it affects the autistic individual. (I would personally argue that Shaun being an adult also removes the "how autism affects families" plot aspect.)

edited 30th Dec '17 9:37:39 AM by BonsaiForest

I recall a study made about Wikipedia which judged its (either pharmacological or medical, I am not sure which) information as slightly more reliable than the US government's own FDA agency and far more reliable than a major newspaper. So yeah.

I've worked in biomedical research for years. I'm drifting further and further away in order to get into pure math like I want, but still have a position in a lab for the time being.

Sorry for double posting

And there's the race/gender thing again. The "eccentric genius" is always a white man. I read a thing a while back that looks at that through a feminist lens. How the "eccentric genius" man is "too smart" to do housework or be personable, so his wife has to do all of that for him. And that would never work if the genders were flipped

This has been an archetype for centuries, and the white, male autistic just propagates it further. Being smart or autistic doesn't give you a jerk license. Disagreeing with someone in front of a patient is completely out of line behavior (You disagree in private. Doing so in front of a patient is complete unprofessional and not to mention scares the patient) that may work for a medical drama but in real life it'd get you fired. If I ran a hospital and was under the impression that an autistic doctor I hired would do that, I wouldn't be hiring any autistics any time soon.

I hate these kinds of characters so much honestly. It tells an audience that doesn't include me (since I'm not a white man) that smart people are supposed to have inflated egos and act like jerks. And you get things like culture in the tech field which is run by white men who think because they're halfway intelligent that they can be as awful as they want

edited 30th Dec '17 10:22:01 AM by Cailleach

I think people who are jerks in specific ways (because they think that, for instance, disagreeing with a doctor in front of a patient is important since the situation must be resolved on the spot) might stop if they understood just why their behavior was jerky. This is of course based on the assumption that the person doesn't know why it's important to change said behavior.

Like, if Dr. Murphy was told that disagreeing with a doctor in front of the patient would scare the patient because it means that the doctors don't necessarily know what they're doing and are potentially putting the patient's life in danger, then he might think "That's horrible! Have I been doing that all this time?! What should I do instead if I think the doctor's wrong?"

Such rules wouldn't work on people who understand both the rules and the reason for them, and don't care or don't think the reason is important.

Thought experiment: for everyone here, what kind of a TV show or movie featuring an autistic character or incorporating autism into its plot/theme would you like to see?

For me personally, it should include one racial minority and/or one female character (they can be the same person), and show very different personalities and different interests and different presentations of autism for the characters. Heck, my online friend is female, Christian and churchgoing, and very big into the field of religion. She loves that people-oriented field, while ironically the rest of her family are all computer programmers - her non-autistic sister, mother and father. At the same time, I know her well enough to know how her autism affects her and has even caused misunderstandings. A character inspired by her would blow the minds of the audience, and really educate them.

"It was never serious science. It was joke science backed up by the correlation-causation fallacy and hysterical parents who "just know" "

I am personally acquainted with at least one parent who still won't get his kids vacinated because he doesnt trust either the government or "Big Pharma." Basically, he believes the bogus claim because it fits his personal narrative about institutional corruption.

"Luckily I work in an area now that the media isn't that interested in (unless people start looking for the big pseudomona scoop)"

So you are a biomedical researcher?

"Luckily I work in an area now that the media isn't that interested in (unless people start looking for the big pseudomona scoop)"

This unfortunately works in reverse as well. I've met lots of people who are immediately suspicous of someone claiming to be autistic, because they assume that means they will act like a jerk. Apparently so many jerks have used autism as an excuse (or at least many people believe they have) that they have discredited autism as a diagnosis.

"The "eccentric genius" is always a white man." Well, not entirely.

"I hate these kinds of characters so much honestly. It tells an audience that doesn't include me (since I'm not a white man) that smart people are supposed to have inflated egos and act like jerks."

Represent!

I actually enjoy portrayals of those with autism that aren't just "asocial genius", "fluffy cinnamon bun child", or "manchild". Yes, even the jerkish autistic portrayals like the doctor one, because it shows our personalities are just as variable as the common man. Even if said jerk makes me hate their guts.

Also, people still seriously believe in the vaccine hypothesis? Has anyone ever consider it might be based on genetics? I doubt vaccine could cause that serious of an alteration to the DNA or at least the brain. The people who are gullible enough to still believe in a long since disproved theory lack common sense, and that's coming from someone who doesn't have much common sense herself.

If you think that is wacky, some extreme vegans believer animal products causes autism. And no I am not kidding some people actually do believe that.

Maybe there is a theme to intestinal issues and autism spectrum disorder, but I bet that this belief is not grounded in any science...

Do you have any good examples of autistic characters who aren't jerks? I'd really like to watch some of those. I actually can't think of one. Nearly every autistic character I've ever encountered, outside of things made for little kids, has been a complete jerkass "because autism"

edited 2nd Jan '18 1:30:09 PM by Cailleach

https://www.peta.org/features/got-autism-learn-link-dairy-products-disease/

It's certainly based on hockey science and cherry picked information. PETA certainly buys into that crap.

I know Author is a kid's show, but one of the characters, George, is confirmed to be autistic.

edited 2nd Jan '18 1:30:43 PM by firewriter

The autistic character is Carl. George is dyslexic though, so under the neurodiversity umbrella

I guess I got them mixed up.

Regarding autism being genetic, I've seen a handful of examples of it anecdotally, though it bears pointing out that not all these people were diagnosed with it.

• Someone whose dad (from the stories she told me) showed signs of autism - he was eccentric, and he went from odd job to odd job trying to support his family. As for this individual herself, her younger brother was diagnosed with autism. As for her herself? She showed signs of it, including obsessions (airplanes, World War II, birds), a unique way of communicating (it's hard to explain, but I noticed it), and recently, she's told me, "Yeah, I think I have it and so does my dad."

• A guy who always talked/typed very formally online, would ask random questions out of the blue about topics such as half-elf and elf discrimination, and other random things. One day, I mentioned to him that he came across as possibly having it, and he said "That's very fascinating. Why do you think so?" and told me that his sister has autism. His sister has a severely debilitating form of it, and is nonverbal and unable to care for herself.

• Another guy who was obsessed with Sonic the Hedgehog and had no social skills. One day, after he told me "I need help. Everyone thinks I'm annoying", I mentioned autism/Aspergers to him and explained that it causes difficulty in learning social skills, and showed him a video of Sheldon Cooper's Aspergers traits. He watched the video and said to me, "Total mind screw! That is so me!" My goal in telling him he may have it, of course, was to encourage him to get a diagnosis so he could receive support. I realize that many see Sheldon Cooper as a cartoon caricature (I know a female Aspie who really likes him), but he did find the character helpful.

Anyone else know any non-jerk autistic characters? Because now I'd like to know as well. I'm also a bit worried about how our representation will affect us. Though maybe we could say, "Yeah, I'm kinda like [character], but I try to be nice and not accidentally rude like s/he is," and maybe smooth things out a bit.

Honestly, documentaries on autism represent us better than fiction does, in some ways.

edited 2nd Jan '18 2:26:21 PM by BonsaiForest

The intestinal issues thing is being examined. Things like autistic people's gut flora, and the fact that many observers have seen autistic patients complain about their gut hurting (and some nonverbal autistics have been seen rubbing their stomach as if in pain, or being doubled over in pain), but the current tools for examining intestinal pain have not found anything.

Note that I emphasized current. Because I have celiac disease (among other problems), and for the longest time, doctors had no way to test for it reliably. It was more like, eat gluten, have reaction, consistently, then you have it. Now, the current tests for celiac have a high false negative rate. Conditions can be discovered well before good tools to find them exist. So if many autistics have intestinal issues (because I certainly do), then we don't yet know exactly what they are or how to find them with a test.

Wait, there are more jerk examples? Huh, I never knew. It might be because I don't watch many television shows outside of South Park.

I was going to deny the intestinal thing on my end, but then I realized that, every week or so, I would briefly get pains in my lower body but it's never been a serious problem. Is it connected to this? Probably not, but I thought I could bring it up to help contribute to the discussion.

Yeah, what is up with all autistic people being jerks. I wonder if the writers intended to subvert all people with conditions being automatically nice, but it ended up being the reverse thing instead.