In general, I sympathize with the men who get suckered into the manosphere because many of them are men who are hurting because they feel like they aren't good enough and are looking for some type of guidance in their life so they will feel finally feel like they are. There are some other nasty things involved that often draw men to that space, like entitlement, bitterness, etc, but sometimes there is a legitimate hurt and a need to connect to other people.
The tragedy is that ultimately they may even be given some good advice (most of it very basic stuff like proper grooming, fashion sense, etc that could be found elsewhere), but for the most part they will not be taught to accept themselves or how to have healthy relationships with women or other men. It just doubles down on all the things that led to them being miserable in the first place.
...this story though, really creeped me out. "Autism" in no way excuses what happened.
edited 7th Oct '17 9:21:35 PM by Draghinazzo
I also think that the combination of legit basic advice, and utter nastiness, is what's so insidious about it. They spot the positive stuff, think, "These people know what they're talking about!", and get pulled into the rest over time. That happened to my brother. (also, that was one way he tried to lure me to the manosphere, pointing out examples of that sort of harmless advice: "See, it's just basic social skills!")
And there's another aspect. People who feel that a legit, valid concern of theirs is being ignored (like, for instance, men noticing certain ways in which society is unfair to men - like custody battles favoring the woman automatically, the recent incident in the news where a man trying to help a lost child got beaten up because he was mistaken for a creep, etc.) and they go to the first person/group that takes their concern seriously. For example, for men who felt that there were certain unfairnesses against them in society, most people ignore that and say "Well, women have it worse, so whatever", but then the manosphere says, "You're right, there really are problems men uniquely face, and we're the only ones talking about it." Having met a sympathetic individual/group, they then get pulled into the rest of what that group is saying as well. (Also happened to my brother)
Having been a former conspiracy nut and 9/11 truther (ack), it's painful to see my brother fall into the phase that I grew out of, albeit in a very different - and arguably far worse - way.
Also, in his case, pickup artist books taught him how to get into a woman's pants. From there, it was a gradual slide into hating women, seeing them as inferior, hating equality, worshiping the total free market and hating the concept of government in general, all while putting on a cocky alpha male persona that quickly gets replaced with raw anger (but remember, he's a real man and therefore in control of his emotions).
edited 8th Oct '17 6:27:42 AM by BonsaiForest
I'd be interested in knowing the manosphere stories, especially from you, Murazrai, as I'm very interested in your experiences of how you got in, and how you eventually left, the manosphere. But those risk being off-topic for this discussion, so how about in the Discord?
A procrastination in of itself
We do also have a Men's Issues thread, where such discussion would probably be relevant.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Yeah. I think since it's a more personal "this is what this person experienced" thing, it could be done in P Ms or Discord. Well, I'll ask Murazrai personally.
On an unrelated note, my online friend is going to graduate school and there is another Aspie there.
This guy has major social anxiety, to the point where he won't go to any and all meetings. He does not participate in any group discussions. Like, he doesn't do things that would be required of anyone else. It's taken to an extreme.
She's said this about him:
Whatever he chooses to do as far as a job, it simply won't be tolerated.
He just won't be able to choose what he wants to do. He'll either have to do what he's told, or he's out the door.
We're not helping him by continuing to tolerate it.
I'm hoping that at some point, [person in charge of a particular program he and my friend are in] will put her foot down and say, you'll either need to do what is expected of you, or leave.
(...)
He needs to have serious clinical help that works. Otherwise, it really will control him long term.
I'm not someone that's trying to avoid compassion, but what I see other people saying is shrugging their shoulders and going, "well, what can you do?" Actually, there's lots you can do. It's not something to be passive about.
edited 8th Oct '17 9:37:47 PM by BonsaiForest
Oh, bother.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
How someone like that was able to even get into graduate school boggles the mind.
I'm assuming academics alone were how he did it. Good grades, and there you go.
And one thing that's common for autistics who don't have intellectual disability, is to have good grades, but be lacking in other skills/areas.
The Wanderer
As an autistic who's currently in grad school (Though now I'm in the thesis stage), I had much the same problem, except I'd actually show up.
Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.
As a person who likes solitude, I can understand how he feels, but she is right that he needs to understand that work is about working with people. With some people, me included, actually getting into trouble is the only way they can learn. I am fully aware of this and started observing my co-workers to look at their problems so that I will not repeat them.
How do you solve the trickiest problems in the workplace? Employ more autistic people
says The Guardian.
Subheading: Neurodiversity can be a huge advantage for companies, yet people on the spectrum have often been marginalised. Now some firms are specifically seeking them out. Is this a crucial turning point?
Here we go:
Auticon was founded in Germany six years ago by Dirk Müller-Remus, a former software developer who had a son diagnosed with Asperger syndrome. He was appalled by the often dismal opportunities available to autistic people, but also well aware that some people with the condition have an array of traits – the capacity to concentrate on a single task for long periods, an appreciation of systems and patterns, an amazing facility with IT – that sets them apart from the so-called “neurotypical” majority.
“We’ve got to be really careful with the language we use: we don’t want to give people the impression that all autistic people are IT geniuses, or that there are not neurotypical people who can do all of these things,” he says. “But in the right role, and with the right support, an autistic person will significantly outperform a neurotypical person doing the same job. We have lots of evidence to back that up.”
Whoa. If given the right support, we will outperform a non-autistic/allistic doing the same job, and there's lots of evidence to support that idea?
But things may be changing, albeit slowly.
It then gives an example of one individual and his experiences with his previous job. I won't quote that here, since it's basically what you'd expect - the normal office is too noisy for him to handle well, so he listens to music to drown it out, social rituals in the office are meaningless to him and he avoids things such as parties, and he preferred e-mails over phone calls since e-mails are basically keeping a record that can be read again and again. After being fired, his local job center gave very limited help, before the company Auticon hired him.
The government intelligence and security centre GCHQ has a neurodiversity programme which recruits people with conditions such as autism, dyslexia and dyspraxia, and is built on the idea that – to quote its former director, Robert Hannigan – “we need all talents, and we need people who dare to think differently and be different.” There is also an elite unit in the Israeli army called Unit 9900 – where, according to US magazine The Atlantic, autistic people “act as eyes on the ground for highly sensitive operations, analyzing complex images delivered in real time from military satellites around the world”.
Additional examples are then given of autistics who struggle with mainstream employment. I won't quote most, but I'll briefly quote this one:
Regarding autistics being diagnosed late:
Could say the same of dyslexics. Yet, their support is also minimal in the workplace.
edited 10th Oct '17 9:59:35 AM by Euodiachloris
Actually, with how long the article was, I didn't quote that part. But there was a brief mention of dyslexia and dyspraxia as introducing new thought styles to the office that can be useful.
From a review of a kid lit novel about an autistic protagonist:
We would sit side by side for hours, you know, him cataloguing his music collection, me sharing interesting tidbits about, for example, the ever-shifting borders of certain African nations. This was…I know that this was his way of expressing love. I think he was as puzzled by Chase as Mother is by me. He would attend the games and cheer, but fundamentally not get it. So I know…I know he loved me. I know he loved me because he would sit with me and listen to me talk about maps, and because he would tell me the history of SST Records the way some parents tell the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears.
“But all the same, he never took me in his arms and hugged me and told me he loved me so much, the way Mother does. (pp. 167-8)
(Before Hank was obsessed with music, he was obsessed with maps, hence the mention of shifting borders of African nations.)
In a world where people believe you’re a monster if you don’t constantly hug people and tell them you love them, this sticks out. It emphasizes how you can express love in multiple ways, and how these aren’t any lesser.
The green italicized part is a quote from the book, the rest is a quote from the review. Basically, the dad appears to have autistic traits, and he was as baffled by the allistic child in the family as the allistic mother was by her autistic son. But the dad shows his love through what he does, spending time with his kids.
edited 11th Oct '17 5:30:23 AM by BonsaiForest
With friendships being as hard to maintain as they are for many of us, I have a question. When it comes to friendships, how many of you feel as if the ones you have are largely one-sided?
As in, the other person mostly sets the rules, or it's you who's in charge, but not a true equal partnership?
With my friend, I've noticed that if she brings something up, I'll usually start a discussion on it, but if I bring something up, she only does if she finds the topic interesting. Granted, there are a few things one can say about this, such as that we're operating from different perspectives - she only continues from topics she finds interesting and I'm more about the connection in general, so I will respond to almost anything. Or one can say that I find more of her stuff interesting than she does of mine.
Still, I feel unequal, and also like I need her more than she needs me, even if, ironically, she starts conversations with me out of the blue all the time. But like, if she wants to video chat, I do it; if I want to, it's on her schedule. If I want to do anything, it's on her time. If she wants to do something, I'm up for it right away unless there's a specific reason why I can't.
Any of you in situations like this - or the reverse, where you're the one who has things always happen on your time?
Oh, bother.
TBF, most relationships aren't truly equal. The key point is whether it's equal enough and more importantly whether or not you are satisfied with it.
The fact that you are pondering how unequal your "friendship" is seems like a sign that maybe you need to have a long overdue discussion with this friend.
And if she complains about it...that might be a sign that it's time to end the "friendship".
edited 12th Oct '17 8:15:35 PM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
That's scary. She's my only real friend; all other people I talk to I feel more detached from, and they're more like acquaintances.
Also, she brings up things every single day.
I would like to know if other people are in similar situations though. I would not be surprised if it's a common Aspie experience. (and she's one too)
At most, I have acquaintances. I haven't had anyone I would call a friend since I graduated high school.
It's one thing to make a spectacle. It's another to make a difference.
I have two people I'd consider close friends, one online and one IRL.
That's about it for me.
My online friend and I aren't very good at keeping in touch with each other but we have a good relationship and always are able to pick things up even if we haven't spoken for a while.
I see relationships a fleeting thing. I don't keep in touch with most friends that I have made over the past 15 years. The sole exception is a friend that I made during an arcade session and even then thanks to having to go to different arcades we had never seen each other in months. I was going to meet him this month, but a new friend from a far place is coming so I have to meet her instead.
In Twitter however, I do regularly keep contact with my playmates who bumped into each other during PVP matches in Puzzle of Empires, even if that means liking their tweets and nothing else.
Creeping around the Thrifty Megamart
I do have people that I consider friends. But I don't really talk often. Online, I just lurk on the r/Kirby Discord server, where the majority of whom I would call online friends or acquaintances are at, and read their responses until I make a random comment and continue lurking. Offline, I barely talk at all, except when I'm being spoken directly too.
Fortunately, the r/Kirby server is a pretty friendly place, and my IRL friends accept that I just act differently and that extends to socializing.
My online boyfriend is also understanding of my autism. Though there are times where I feel I don't contribute much to the relationship, as my boyfriend is the flirty and more outgoing one of our relationship, whereas I'm more quiet a lot of times.
edited 13th Oct '17 10:25:49 AM by UmbreonRogue
Running through Ultra Space. Pokemon fangirl since Generation IV.
A procrastination in of itself
I have a long term significant other, a trio of very close friends, several online aquintances who I try and speak to occasionally, a handful of industry acquaintances from my industry and a smattering of “old friends” who I’ve basiclaly picked up over the years and have irregular contact with. There’s some overlap between the groups, one person who I’d consider a friend is a former coworker, another is a former classmate at uni, my trio of close friends are all people I went to school with, ect...
A lot comes down to how you define people, I get along with and know a number of people in the industry I work in, but I’d probably only consider one of those people an actual friends, with a few more being acquaintances
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
In those relationships, how close do you feel, and how much freedom do you have in things like, say, variety of topics they'll/you'll talk about, and things like that?
Reading this interview of two moms of now-adult autistic sons, but what stuck out to me was the attempts at educating the community.
He goes to Whole Foods, he does his own checkout with his debit card, and everybody’s patient. There are still people that give weird, dirty looks, and things like that, that does happen. But, I think we’re very fortunate to be in a place that’s pretty accepting. We’ve spent some time in other parts of Los Angeles and outside the city, and I think people are not as understanding. When we’re out there, we do get more weird looks. I think part of my mission is to help people of the world understand autism in a different way, so we’re not afraid of it.
I feel very lucky for our community. There are so many programs. I bring Neal and other groups of young adults to faith-based communities, and we help lead services. You have these non-verbal kids helping to lead high holiday services and synagogue Friday night services. We’re changing perspectives. It’s really easy to get into a natural environment, a peaceful environment - the beach, the mountains.
edited 14th Oct '17 8:38:08 AM by BonsaiForest
With him, I talked about entertainment since that it is the only connection between us. We just let the conversation go along and we are unaware who is dominating the conversation, if it happens at all.
As for the linked article, I wondered why we cannot tolerate the weird, even in supposed individualistic societies. Perhaps the unpleasantness that comes with it leads to people getting rid of said unpleasantness like cleaning a smelly place....
We like to think of ourselves as individualistic. That's it.
It's one thing to make a spectacle. It's another to make a difference.
Maybe there is sympathy to be found somewhere, but as a girl who's had to deal with manosphere creeps firsthand, I really don't feel like finding it. I do not sympathize with rapists and that article absolutely sickened me.
Edit: Hell of a page topper...
edited 7th Oct '17 9:11:32 PM by Cailleach