The General Russia Thread

He probably was referring to Poland and the former Warsaw Pact states that historically have had less-than-warm relations with Russia.

Here in southern California (I must remind you that the US is just as large and varied as the Russian Federation in diversity), Europe is worshiped as the essentially the pinnacle of the word "liberal" with only San Francisco being at a comparable standard. Californians associate "Europe" with legally being allow to drink before driving, societies void of the effects of workaholic Puritanism upon US society, much more open attitudes towards sex and nudity, and of course, state funded tuition in college and university.

edited 29th May '15 7:09:18 AM by FluffyMcChicken

"It's always better there where we aren't."

Old Russian proverb.

I gotta tell you, I'm in Denmark and it's pretty fucking terrific.

Even if those soldiers were on active duty, and in the special forces, the government would deny it anyway. Standard operating procedure. So nothing new under the sun.

Why wouldn't they be put off active duty first? That's a very easy thing to do, and it gives you a nice boost to your plausible deniability stat.

What makes me wonder is how those two soldiers were made to "confess."

edited 29th May '15 10:19:12 AM by KnitTie

Given they did meet the Russian officials in the region and got the message they were on their own, I don't think they were needed any other persuasion beyond being abandoned by their nation, if you are implying they were forced to confess.

edited 29th May '15 10:34:22 AM by AngelusNox

If it's SOP to remove people from active duty list before sent off on their grand adventure, it doesn't increase plausible deniability at all.

First you ask. Then you tell them do they understand the consequences of their actions and ask again. Then you raise your voice, maybe threaten them with severe punishment. But then you say that there is a way out, an olive branch.

edited 29th May '15 10:29:53 AM by TerminusEst

Don't tell me you are actually buying that "abandoned" story. They weren't abandoned in any way, shape or form, given that Russia is right now actively trying to get them back or at least set them up a meeting with the Russian envoy to Ukraine. That they were told that they are on their own is pure bullshit.

edited 29th May '15 10:50:11 AM by KnitTie

No more than I'm buying they went there as volunteers and as off duty military personnel.

Well the claim that they were abandoned is very provably false.

As is the claim that Russia does not use it's soldiers to back the Rebels. Rather they are active duty or not the fact is they are operating in the interests of the Russian state,almost certainly under the direction of the Russian government. Still, Ukraine should not charge them with terrorism. Even if they are technically no longer in Russian service, they are still soldiers serving their nations interests,and should be treated as POW's.

As I said before, those soldiers, considering that they were actually fighting, were almost certainly not under control of the Russian government due to being actual volunteers.

And I also don't think that there's any conclusive proof of active duty Russian soldiers being in Ukraine. Circumstantial and second-hand evidence, yes, but no actual proof.

edited 29th May '15 11:59:22 AM by KnitTie

Were they fighting fighting or captured during a Ukrainian offensive? If battle lines shift quickly enough it's entirely possible for training advisers to end up getting captured in combat. Plus "advisers" is a broad catagory, the US sent advisers to Vietnam after all.

The frontlines have been pretty much static ever since the winter offensive ended with the capture of Debaltsevo, so there's no way the Ukrainians could have gotten to actual Russian military advisors when they captured those two.

Unless the two were breaking regulations of course.

Hey, that's actually possible. Bored soldiers are a recipe for trouble.

The Moscow Times: Russia imposes travel ban on 89 EU politicians.

edited 31st May '15 5:12:17 AM by LordofLore

Including, of all people, Nick Clegg.

Nick Clegg can into relevance again!

And Malcolm Rifkind.

I think that most of those people haven't even heard of Russia before it decided to blacklist them

Probably they just wanted to blacklist at least one person from each country responsible for the sanctions.

edited 31st May '15 11:38:05 AM by TerminusEst

I don't know, all of that just sounds really silly to me. Political equivalent of farting in your opponent's general direction.

edited 31st May '15 11:47:25 AM by KnitTie

That's a common action in IR.

And accusing his mother of smelling of elderberries.