Death-seeking in Religion

I guess we see things differently. I consider "afterlife" to be the immediate continuation of life from one body into a new form. So to me, Back from the Dead after a long period of Cessation of Existence is different.

I get your point, but here is our difference. I believe that it isn't just about when you die, but the type of person you die that is important. You have to use the time you have to better yourself. I believe that it is actually also possible to enter the "new" life without actually dying. I and my fellow believes wish for the state of the world itself to change, not the state of our own existence.

"I don't understand you guys. Your eternal life is on the line. The stakes are literally infinite. How can you even think you can afford uncertainty? When making a decision, don't you always ask yourselves, "What would God want me to do?" Because, ultimately, that's the only thing that matters. Not your desires, impulses, or even feelings."

Unless you believe that God created every part of you, including your free will, and expects you to use it. In that case, your desires, impulses and feelings come from God and are trying to guide you toward becoming the type of person you are most meant to be. There may not even be a single correct way of living for you to follow, it's the act of deciding for yourself, growing as a person, and finding a way to make a positive difference in the world which is what God wants for you. How you deal with the uncertainty of living in a world that has no simple answers may in fact be the point of it all. Maybe God intends people to be creative.

Jesus told us never to eschew forgiveness. It's right in the Lord's prayer. Obviously, there are certain types of Christians who disagree, but one traditional take on it is that you never do anything from a sense of self-rightiousness. Yes, this contradicts a lot of the Old Testement, but that's why it's the Old Testement, and not the "New" one. In this mindset, the only acceptable motivation for anything at all is love. No, really.

And if one could even approach that mindset, not perfectly since no one is perfect, but occassionally you succeed in feeling this way about yourself and your place in the world, surrounded by evidence of God's love for creation, why would you want to leave? A longer life means that you get to experience the miracle of existence a little longer. God will take you when he's ready, it's not something you need to worry yourself about.

This applies regardless of what form the "afterlife" takes, whether it's a resurection, a heaven, or reincarnation. Right now, God loves you, so what more could you want?

That, anyway, is what I would have told your younger self, had I met you then.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

Doesn't matter what you think. You can't choose to believe or not believe. Belief is something you just do. If you're uncertain but choose not to listen to your uncertainty, that does not make you a devout believer, because you are still uncertain; you're just willfully ignoring that uncertainty.

I'm pretty confident in my polytheistic worldview, and this is absolutely the last question I would ever ask. Sobek and I have a pretty good understanding. Sometimes I'll pray to him for guidance or advice. Sometimes I even receive it. But ultimately, what matters in my life is doing what I want to do with my life. Sobek has intentions for me, but I still make my choices. My life is mine to live, not God's or anyone else's, and anyone who has a problem with that - be they mortal or divine - can bite me.

As a friend of mine once said, "If you don't get into Heaven, you wouldn't have liked it there anyway."

edited 25th Mar '14 8:00:45 AM by TobiasDrake

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This gave me an idea for a plot. Basically, a Slice of Life IN HELL.

edited 25th Mar '14 8:46:21 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

"Doesn't matter what you think. You can't choose to believe or not believe. Belief is something you just do."

I think I understand what you are saying here, and I dont even disagree, necessarily. But I do think there is some degree of self-determination here- usually there is more than one option that will fit how a person feels, and choosing among those options (belief in this God, belief in that God, a different interpretation of God, or no belief at all) is the problem that everyone must address, at some point in their life.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

The Godhead/Netjer does not require your belief nor does it seek it. Threats of damnation of apostates come from the lips of highly dubious humans, not from any 'Higher Power'.

When you play chess to you care if the pieces believe in you or not? Now, the Gods/Names of God are not quite so dispassionate as that, as they do care for their charges but they will nudge you in the right direction now and again whether you know it or not. Acknowledging their existence just makes it easier for them to help you directly.

Only very rarely does Divinity jump out in front of a person and shout 'boo!', usually when that person is badly lost. The person remains free to ignore the offer of help, of course, and many do.

Anywho, that's not really the point of the thread. I tend to view the afterlife as a short period of R&R before reassignment, but even if I did believe in a 'heaven', I'd be in no rush to get there. For a start, I hear the last step is a doozy, but there's so much to do in this life before I go. I'm too damned busy to die.

'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'

The initial reason to promise a better afterlife might have been to actually keep people living instead of making them seek death. If you endure your short, shitty live you will be rewarded with something better. The initial impetus could thus have been the very opposite of death-seeking.

Note that the Hindu don't promise a better afterlife at all, and the Buddhists insist that the best afterlife is Cessation of Existence. And yet ascetes starve themselves, and women used to throw themselves in the funerary pyre after their husbands.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Ascetics aren't actually trying to kill themselves. They're trying to learn to live with no desires because they believe that's the key to the whole "nirvana" thing.

Isn't wanting to be rid of desires a desire itself?

Are you questioning 2000+ years of Eastern theology? Someone had an extra helping of confidence with their Wheaties this morning...

Aesetics starve themselves precisely because they believe that freeing themselves from Earthly desires, and material life, will lead them to a better state of existence. So- not exactly "no afterlife", but it's not an afterlife that preserves individual identity. You get absorbed into the Godhead, or something to that effect (I'm relying on memory here). So maybe there is a correlation between a mindset that wants to negate individual existence with a desire to seek death. I find that rather plausible.

edited 27th Mar '14 10:16:30 AM by DeMarquis

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

What, were you expecting it to be easy?

Apparently zen buddhists are really big on paradoxes. Although, all I know about zen buddhism comes from reading GEB.

edited 27th Mar '14 10:28:12 AM by Meklar

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Gödel, Escher, Bach? If you're still interested, try "The Way of Zen" by Alan Watts. It's written for western audiences, but still very good.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

Buddhism in general is about destroying the ego, which is not, I believe, sane or healthy.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Existence is suffering. Therefore destroy all of existence.

Did you know that there is research that indicates Buddhist methods of meditation improve the immune system, and decrease depression?

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

There's plenty of research that "proves" plenty of crap. Chi Kung diminishes cancer, Yoga increases longevity, acupuncture does this and that. I won't buy it until I've read the methodology at the very least. There's a lot of very crappy papers out there. How do you measure either of those, to begin with? Especially the latter. Also, how do you separate the benefits of specific techniques from, say, th benefits of togetherness in a group?

I for one have practiced Zazen for a while, and all it gave me were numb legs and aching joints.

edited 27th Mar '14 10:45:24 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

I can heartily recommend the benefits of sitting around not doing shit and not worrying about it.

Stress, it's a killer.

No, real research in actual accredited journals.

Here

And Here

And here

Finally here

Maybe you weren't doing it right?

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

Or perhaps their methodology is questionable; I'd have to give them a long hard look, and I don't feel inclined to do so at the moment. But I would like to point out that Buddhism and Taoism are practiced very differently in their native environments than the versions adapted for Western consumption.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Of course I do. To the chagrin of old people everywhere, age does not absolve something from being questioned.

Or possible. Unless you kill yourself, which would neither be considered sane or healthy.

It would take far too long to explain what Buddhism is "actually about." Destroying the ego, sure, but only by replacing it with a more natural state of being. I've never seen any research that suggested Buddhists suffer more from mental illnesses than the rest of us. In any case, it's pretty clear that relaxation techniques reduce stress, and stress undermines the immune system. The mechanism is pretty well understood.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

True, but if you belief religion per se to be a form of mental illness than it's because most people are insane. And who could blame them given the state of this world.

Insanity does not work that way.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Religion and spirituality is, in fact, associated with wellness and recovery from mental illness.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."