Saruman - The Greatest Failing of the LOTR Films

Inspired by the fact I just saw the film Hobbit...

Why did the movies turn Saruman into Sauron's toady? Saruman is a peer of Sauron existentially speaking and he had his own great cunning and schemes in the work. Moreover, he was an interesting villain. Unlike The Silmarillion, LOTR paints a rather simplistic picture of good and evil. Sauron by this point is devoid of anything resembling goodness and is all about torture and mwahahaha evil just for the lulz. He reigns over an empire of faceless goons. But Saruman? He is a "human" face of wickedness; someone we can look to and say "yes...I can see why he is doing this." Even when he repeatedly rejects his chances for redemption, it's presented in the most pitiable and understandable of ways. Pride is something we all must struggle with and Saruman was mastered by his, to his great loss as he was forever banished from paradise. His end is tragic and the way he's taken out in the films does him no justice, just like everything else in regards to Movie Saruman.

Now, yes, I suppose Denethor got it worse as he was transformed from a broken man into little more than comic relief, and the less said about Sauron the Evil Spotlight of Doom the better, but I honestly don't care about them as much as I do about Saruman. I think he was possibly the most three-dimensional character in the books apart from maybe Frodo himself. And let's face it, the LOTR books are more about an epic story than character development for the most part. That's why they had to give Legolas a personality in the films and had Aragorn being reluctant to be king.

Saruman was kind of Sauron's toady in the books. They make it pretty clear that whatever schemes Saruman has, they won't stand up to Sauron's might, that Saruman answers to Sauron — see the section of the book where they talk about how angry Sauron will be that Saruman lost his Palantir and can thus no longer communicate with or receive orders from Sauron.

Pretty much this. Saruman was Sauron's thug from the get-go, to be used and discarded as he saw fit.

To draw a parallel, it's like a couple of the Death Eaters of Harry Potter. They think that they'll rule at their master's side and become nearly as powerful as him, but he thinks nothing of killing anyone, no matter how loyal (such as Snape). None of them would survive his ultimate rise to power.

Saruman was The Starscream for a reason. No, his armies and Isengard were no match for Sauron and Mordor. He never intended to win an actual war with Sauron. He intended to take The One and use its power at which point he would indeed have probably been more powerful than Sauron. He might even have been able to command the Nazgul.

But at no point did he directly serve Sauron. He was bent tO Sauron's will yes but it was more like a general corruption of purpose at which point Saruman wanted only to replace Sauron and he came damn close to doing so.

How the devil did he come "damn close?" He lost his Palantir and got his army and powers crushed by the Treants and Gandalf. He could barely hold onto Rohan, and was only able to do so by trickery (which was brokebn by Gandalf alone).

Sauron almost destroyed the combined armies of Rohan and Gondor with his advance forces and was poised to overrun them completely. The only thing that stopped him was the destruction of the Ring.

And, on that note, how was Saruman going to use the Ring? Gandalf flat-out says that it only truly obeys its master, Sauron. Others could, possibly, wield it, but it almost certainly would have rebelled against Saruman if he attempted to use it against Sauron.

I always got the impression that it was possible for someone sufficiently powerful and learned to successfully use the Ring against Sauron, as the novels clearly show characters like Gandalf or Galadriel fearing becoming a new Dark Lord (or, I supposed, Dark Queen in Galadriel's case) if they took it up, and it's explicitly stated that someone using the Ring against him is Sauron's true fear. However, it's also made clear that the only real difference this would make is exactly what name Middle-earth's new Evil Overlord goes by (and this is especially true of Saruman, who was well on his way to becoming Sauron-lite anyway absent the Ring as a direct corrupting factor).

And no, he never came close to toppling Sauron and setting himself up in his place; Gandalf outright says that Saruman would have no chance without the Ring, and the closest the Ring ever was to him still had all of Rohan in between. I can't shake the feeling that the OP has Saruman's vision of himself mixed up with how the actual character is portrayed (and I'm saying this as a fan of Saruman- as a character and villain, not a person- myself, both the book and Christopher Lee versions).

Did you forget how Frodo and Sam leave the Fellowship mere moments before Saruman's Uruk-hai attacked? He was a hair's breath away from claiming the Ring then and there. Middle-earth owes Boromir a lot for scaring Frodo off.

And Gandalf says quite clearly that he could use the Ring - he'd just end up being transformed into a Well-Intentioned Extremist. Galadriel says much the same. If either of them could take the Ring and us its power for their own ends, there's no reason Saruman the White shouldn't have been able to.He was probably the second most powerful being on Middle-earth at this point and he was second only to Sauron in knowledge of Ringmaking. (well, third, after Feanor. But fuck him)

edited 17th Dec '13 9:25:42 PM by Nikkolas

If it were that much of a done deal, one would think that the entire Fellowship would have been slaughtered by Saruman's forces instead of just Boromir.

Even if Frodo had been there, there is no guarantee he would have been captured. The Uruk-Hai seemed content to simply grab the first two hobbits they saw.

Sure, but that doesn't preclude the fact that they still wouldn't be able to truly defeat Sauron. They just feared becoming as terrible as him, iirc.

Except that Merry and Pippin ever actually reached Isengard in the first place, so it's a moot point. He still wouldn't have had the ring even if the Uruk-Hai HAD taken Frodo and Sam.

Edit:

Yes, they could all have used the Ring. However, the Ring would have most likely betrayed them the moment they tried to use it against Sauron, and they would never be able to use it as Sauron could (as the Ring was literally part of him).

edited 17th Dec '13 9:37:47 PM by Funden

Funden has already said this, but the ring was bound completely to Sauron. It was made specifically for him, he is its sole master. It probably would've fucked up Saruman in a similar way it did Gollum, given enough time.

If yoIf you really want to get into this, there is Word of God on this matter:

"Of any others only Gandalf might be expected to master him since he was a creature of the same order. [...] Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been a contest between the Ring's true allegiance to Sauron versus Gandalf's actually possession of the Ring. But if Gandalf had been the victor it would have been far worse than Sauron winning. The "righteous" Gandalf would have become self-righteous, ruling and ordering things for "good" until he had made good detestable and seem evil." http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_246

So there you have it. It is possible for a Maia, a being like Sauron, Gandalf and Saruman, to take the Ring and bend it to their will. There is no guarantee but it is entirely possible.

Now I'm just picturing "Self-righteous overlord" Gandalf.

   "FRODO!!! THOSE DON'T GO IN THERE! PUT THOSE IN THE RECYCLABLES!!! DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT?!!"   

Ooh, ooh, or

   "FOOL OF A TOOK!! YOU CAN'T PUT KETCHUP ON AN OMELET!! HAVE YOU NO CULTURE?!!"   

or

   "THE MUSICAL SELECTIONS AT THIS PARTY ARE MOST HEINOUS!! AWAY WITH THE DANCE MUSIC!! WE SHALL GROOVE TO LED ZEPPELIN OR NOTHING!!"   

edited 17th Dec '13 10:42:59 PM by RedM

I don't think that Saruman had much of a chance to actually dethrone Sauron, either in the books or in the movies.

However, I do agree with the OP in that movie-Saruman barely gave any indication that he was even trying to dethrone Sauron.

Did you read the quote you just posted? ONLY Gandalf could have done so. Gandalf already had experience with Rings of Power (he wielded Narya, after all). Saruman never had a ring, so he couldn't have done it. Galadriel was not a Maiar, though a ring bearer, so she wouldn't have been able to do it.

I did read the quote, which is why I'm wondering what you are talking about. Where in that letter does Tolkien cite Gandalf's use of the Ring of Fire as to why he can contest Sauron's will and take dominion of the One? Exactly, nowhere. So why can Gandalf compete witH Sauron for the Ring? "He was a creature of the same order" ie. he was a Maia. Saruman is also a Maia.

I also don't see why Gandalf using one of the Elven rings matters. They are nothing like The One or Sauron's other creations and it is those that Saruman knows more about than anyone save Sauron himself. Gandalf certainly is never listed as an expert in Ring-lore.

Saruman is a creature of the same order as Gandalf and Sauron. In terms of learning and power Saruman was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey and he was head of the wizards and the White Council for a reason. Remember Gandlalf the White in his own words said that he is how Saruman should have been before he became evil. So if Saruman had gained the ring he could have been able to subvert it to his will because he is on equal grounds as Gandalf and Sauron.

edited 18th Dec '13 7:04:38 AM by latenight

If Saruman could have done it, Tolkien wouldn't have said, "Only Gandalf." Saruman isn't exactly a recent addition to the narrative. He existed when Tolkien said that.

Taking a look at that letter it doesn't explicitly mention whether Saruman could or not have mastered the Ring but it's safe to assume that he would have been on equal footing as Gandalf. Saruman was an ally of Sauron not one of his servants and before Gandalf destroyed his staff at Isengard still had all his powers.

edited 18th Dec '13 8:51:24 AM by latenight

Seems pretty explicit and unambiguous to me.

edited 18th Dec '13 9:03:01 AM by TobiasDrake

While it does say only Gandalf, the letter was talking in context of the heroes of the story, and those who were on the side of the Fellowship, Aragorn, Galadriel, Elrond, Celeborn. There is no explicit mention of Saruman so its ambiguous in that respect.

The other words that follow imply that there were others as it states "creature of the same order" as Gandalf and Sauron meaning other maia or valar which Saruman was definitely one of them.

It should also be noted that the letter states earlier, "In his presence none but very few of equal stature could have withheld it from him." Who else would be of equal stature to Sauron besides Gandalf or another maia or valar?

edited 18th Dec '13 9:21:19 AM by latenight

Forget this post. I misread.

edited 18th Dec '13 9:40:48 AM by Funden

I'm pretty sure Saruman is left out of the equation because Sauron had already mastered him. It's useless to talk of Saruman mastering the Ring, because he was already Sauron's.

I'd also note that Radagast isn't mentioned either, yet is part of the same general order of Maiar as Saruman, Sauron, and Gandalf. Are we to assume he could master the Ring as well? I rather doubt it.

Aye, I'm going to have to say that only Gandalf had the power to master the ring (and was the only one explicitly said to be able to do so).

Sauron himself bested Saruman, not the Ring. While it is Sauron's power and filled with his malice, it's still just an object and cannot be compared with the full might of Sauron's great mind which is what undid Saruman.

Regardless, power alone cannot be the deciding factor, as Tolkien also says of Sauron "being in origin an immortal spirit, of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman but of a far higher order." http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_183

Basically WOG that even Gandalf the White is far weaker than Sauron and yet Gandalf the Grey could have possibly taken up the Ring and mastered it. Seems obvious to me there are other factors that come into play here. Consider what Galadriel tells Frodo:

"Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others."

Well Sarumans Voice is pretty much exactly that - using his will to dominate others. He was very proficient at it. So he has a couple of the prerequisites to wield the One.

edited 18th Dec '13 10:10:01 AM by Nikkolas

That letter never made any distinction between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White (and as parts of it are relevant to Return of the King, it is most likely about Gandalf the White, who was more powerful than Saruman).