Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital
- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Sexy enemy female snipers. Man, the Winter War done messed their sexual politics up but good.
What's precedent ever done for us?
A procrastination in of itself
Stop allowing Russian oligarchs to launder their money though Cyprus and London, invest heavily in alternative energy sources and then stop buying Russian gas. That's just two economic sanctions that I can think of of the top of my head, I'm sure there are more.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
and absolute Badasses, at that!
Khto tse, mamo-mamo?
@Silas W: Sounds good to me.
Sounds a lot like the Western stereotype of sexy female Russian spies created by such media as the James Bond films
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Ha, try getting a wind farm past the NIMB Ys "But you'll destroy our beautiful landscape!"
Importing gas means we get power with out having to do any of that nasty production
Wandering Jew
Need to get these Svoboda people back on their leash...
Russia and Crimea signed a treaty of reunification, by which Crimea (including Sevastopol) become part of Russia on Tuesday, March 18. Crimea had declared independence on Monday.
Russia has more to do. I expect that Russia's parliament will ratify the treaty, and Russia will organize Crimea as a new federal subject. The de facto government of Crimea rushed into reunification with Russia, and the people of Crimea might not be ready for all the changes; but after the transition, Crimea will be like any other part of Russia.
Russian control of Crimea might last for decades. For comparison, I count 47 years of Israeli control of East Jerusalem (since 1967), and 40 years of Turkish troops in Northern Cyrprus (since 1974). Russia might control Crimea for 40 years, or 47 years, or longer.
Wandering Jew
I don't expect the Russia to lose Crimea in the next 100 years or so. Probably even longer than that (especially if the ethnic Ukrainians start leaving Crimea) .
Unless something catastrophic cripples the nation of Russia, I can't see anyone having the power to force them to give it up. And as long as the majority of Crimea's population is ethnically Russian, I don't see any possibility of a resistance movement gaining traction in the Crimea.
edited 18th Mar '14 7:19:30 PM by DeviantBraeburn
Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Looks like Crimea is the unrecognized states club's new member. I doubt Manila is gonna recognize them.
Of course, note that the Ukraine has refused to pull its troops out of Crimea, and could very well continue to not budge. Mind you, if the Russians start shooting first, well, that gives Ukraine and the west an excuse to shoot back, I have to wonder if Ukraine are deliberately baiting Russia into something like that.
edited 18th Mar '14 7:33:05 PM by Cronosonic
A procrastination in of itself
Only for the couple of days it takes for Russian to formalise the annexation.
Extremely unlikely. They couldnt possibly hope to come out ahead in a shooting contest.
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
Russia's got the Ukrainian forces basically on lockdown. They could just pick them up and frog-march them over the border at this point, almost.
Although Crimea is in the process of being annexed, so they won't be left out in the cold like other Russia-friendly quasi-states like Transnistria, South Ossetia, or Abkhazia. They'll be Russian, and thus much better off than those other three (for the record, the other members of the club are Kosovo, Western Sahara, Taiwan, North Cyprus, and Palestine)
Seems likely to me, because they seem to expect the West to back them up fully is they just bait Russia successfully. Russia can stand against Ukraine, but not against the whole world.
What I am not sure about is whether military help from the West will actually come. It would be bad in any case. If it does come, we'll have WW3. If it won't... well, as of now the rest of the world is doing all they can to assure Ukraine that they will have it's back. It is unlikely that it would even consider war without such assurance. So refusing to interfere would be a very cynical baiting of both countries into doing something stupid.
(sigh) It looks as if the rest of the world are doing all they can to make it escalate. What they should have done is to stop being so focused on making sure Russia is punished, recognise Crimea and insist that everyone sit down and talk, now, before anything important is blown up. And what Russia should do is to recognise Ukraine government - they can't really treat it as non-existent until May.
edited 18th Mar '14 8:00:22 PM by Beholderess
If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
The rest of the world didn't send their armed forces into Ukraine. Only one foreign power invaded Ukraine in this crisis so far. It would be more than a bit strange for that sole invader to then accuse the rest of the world of "escalating" the conflict.
Now there are reports that Ukrainian soldiers have been killed. Putin will probably say that Russian forces had to open fire because Ukrainian soldiers were escalating the conflict in Ukraine against the Russian invaders.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
Crimean militia, likely.
The trouble with this whole mess is that it just opens the door to a question thought to be resolved, firmly, at the closing of the Bosnian Civil War: as sensible as "correction" of borders on ethnic lines seems, doing so unilaterally is NOT to be tolerated. To that end, NATO powers are basically required to reject this action full-on.
What we'll end up with is a situation similar to the "occupation" of the Baltic Countries by the Soviet Union. Nobody had any illusions that the annexation was as real as could be, but America and some others play-acted as if that were the case through the fall of the Union. Thus Ukraine will give up actively trying to claim Crimea, but still consider it part of their country as a formality, "real" maps of the globe will show it as a Russian province, which is what the global community will acknowledge, even as a few prominent countries will still maintain that this never happened.
The closest analogue to this situation is North Cyprus, really, but in the case of both Bosnia and North Cyprus, the solution is an attempt at federalism, and NOT annexation. That's what's going to really stick in the craw of the international community about this. Crimea as an autonomous region in free association with Ukraine nobody would bat an eye at. Crimea as an independent country? Sure, like "Palestine" or "Taiwan." Make some noise, nobody really cares at the end of the day. Crimea and Sevastopol as Oblasts of the Russian Federation? Now you've crossed a line. They'll be shouting hell about this for quite some time, though like China with Tibet, nobody's really going to be doing anything about it.
A lot of the rhetoric coming out of Russia seems really surreal to me. I know this will be different for anyone even a few years older, but the Soviet Union's been broken up for pretty much as long as I can remember. All this talk of reclaiming lost territory/influence sounds about as strange as if Italy started talking about putting the Roman Empire back together.
Benito Mussolini actually used that kind of rhetoric, I believe. (By the way, I think I'm pretty much the same age as you.)
edited 18th Mar '14 9:26:54 PM by Random888
He did, and he started out by reclaiming the ancient Roman territory of... Ethiopia.
I guess Mussolini was never the smartest guy.
Beware the Crazy Man.
Man, lots happened in just a day...
Can anyone give a tl;dr version for those of us who were cut off from the world today?
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Russian urban legend of enemy female snipers: Wow. Just... wow.
edited 18th Mar '14 3:24:36 PM by demarquis