Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital
- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
Considering that Eliot Higgins, the founder and chief analyst of Bellingcat, has no formal training in ballistics or indeed any military science whatsoever, that he has a history of publishing reports that are later disputed, such as the one he wrote on gas attack in Syria, which apparently was a case not as clear-cut as he presented it to be, and that the determination of missile trajectories by analysis of satellite pictures of craters is considered to be “highly experimental and prone to inaccuracy” by actual military experts (read the bottom of the Guardian article where this report is presented, which was, "conicidentally," co-authored by Mr. Higgins himself), I'd put these findings under "unverified."
Seriously, people, if bloggers looking at pictures too hard is what constitutes reliable evidence nowadays, then I can conclusively prove that all those loud cases - Volnovakha, Mariupol, Kramatorsk, MH 17 - were all false-flag provocations by Kyiv.
edited 4th Mar '15 2:32:43 PM by KnitTie
HGW XX/7
See, that's an extremely dishonest presentation of his report. First and foremost, he didn't write it all himself, his team of co-authors did. Moreover, the evidence is not merely extrapolation from satellite photos impact craters, but geolocation from photography on the ground and analyzing the actual visible burn marks from rocket exhausts from the firing sites within Russia.
I didn't link from any Guardian article, I linked directly from bellingcat, and you didn't bother to link to it either. But I did my homework and found the piece, and the comment, which you only presented half of. Why was that? Here is the half you didn't choose to share:
So the actual military expert - honestly quoted - suggested that this method was indeed "experimental" and sometimes inaccurate - but also that Bellingcat's findings were consistent with the use of rocket artillery from where he said. He also doesn't address the geolocation from photos, simply the use of satellite imagery.
Syria has no relevance to this discussion and your mentioning of it is simply an attempt to poison the well, for what its worth I find Bellingcat's evidence on Syria convincing too.
edited 4th Mar '15 2:57:31 PM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
The law in the night
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
edited 4th Mar '15 3:01:33 PM by AngelusNox
Inter arma enim silent leges
I'm sorry, I still don't trust this research. Experimental techniques do not reliable results give.
I'd link a whole bunch of homegrown photo analyses (or is it analysi?) here, but, alas, I cannot do that yet.
More seriously, like the satellite photos purporting to show a Ukrainian fighter jet shooting down MH 17 where both the airliner and fighter jet are the wrong model?
"Yup. That tasted purple."
Every time someone makes a claim, it needs to be evaluated independently. One photo on the internet is not just like every other photo on the internet. Every blogger isnt just as incompetent as every other. And every research report ever written has been disputed. There are still people who dispute that the Earth is round. If you can find flaws in the analysis in question, please share them.
The law in the night
Not even the data was consistent. When they claimed a SU-25 Frogfoot shot the MH-17 with its cannons I found out the cruising height of the passenger plane was the top height of the Frogfoot without a combat load.
Then the argument shifted to the S-25 being able to "snipe" the plane but even with a combat load and the maximum cannon range it the passenger place would still be out of effective suppression range of the 30mm cannons the SU-25 carries, so you can discard the "sniping" part.
Then the picture with either a MIG-29 or a SU-27 came up and people everywhere saw so many mistakes from the Sun's positioning to the scale issues with the satellite photo. The picture was proven to be a hoax in record time. Still doesn't stop Alex Jones tier idiots from using it as "evidence".
Inter arma enim silent leges
Not exactly. What I am talking about are not fakes, but rather sciency-sounding sorta-studies of photos on the internet that try to use them to prove something.
Are we really getting back into the MH 17 shit again? Just to find another excuse to showcase pro-Russian propaganda? It ain't like Kiev doesn't pull the same shit.
You mean shooting down airliners?
If semi-sciency articles on the internet are all we have...
A procrastination in of itself
No we're not, someone on the pro-Russia side bought it up as 'proof' that you can't trust internet based photo analysis.
So slow down there, this time it was your side bringing this shit up, not us.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
There are no sides here, Silas.
We're all trying to find possible solutions and/or a common ground on some of the issues. It's not about sides.
A procrastination in of itself
Considering that it was Shinra who starting acting like there's a grouping that were specifically bring stuff up to discredit Russia I'd suggest you make the no sides argument to him.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Alas, we are not UN :)
edited 4th Mar '15 8:24:42 PM by Beholderess
If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common
@Silas - My side? Notice I've happily gone to eating popcorn now that this place isn't an echo chamber. My job here is done, as far as I'm concerned. <walks over to Quag> I'm with him. 
And notice also my statement wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Just the fact that we're retreading the shootdown again is irritating. But if you like....
@Knit Tie - Please PLEASE do not open up the conspiracy theory can of worms. Bad enough that there is a propaganda war as it is by both sides, we really don't need to examine the lunatic fringe (er...more lunatic than the mainstream I mean) too. I get what you are trying to do, but at least try and keep it focused on the actual subject the source in question is debating.
EDIT-
@Beholderess - I sometimes think we'd be more effective if we as a forum were. :P
edited 4th Mar '15 8:38:38 PM by FFShinra
Okay, I have no idea what's going on here right now, but I think that I've overreacted to that post by Archaemenid. Sorry, I'll try not to dismiss arguments out of hand like that again.
edited 4th Mar '15 8:42:28 PM by KnitTie
No need to apologize.
We've all overreacted a bit, so let's all shake hands, ok?
Now, to go back to current events: what news from Mariupol? And I mean substantial news, and as unbiased as possible, so that we can debate in a civil manner.
edited 4th Mar '15 8:44:53 PM by Quag15
Going by Vice News video taken from both sides of the front, there are small tussles in the villages near the city limits, but the line is broadly holding. How long that remains is...debatable.
The ceasefire tends to generally hold for now, but both sides are not even pretending they are not preparing for some more war.
HGW XX/7
It's a chance for Kiev to try and reform its army, possibly take advantage of new Western equipment - though most of what they've been sold is non-lethal or crap like Saxon - and make its military forces ready for a resumption of hostilities. Even if the ceasefire holds, a stronger UAF will strengthen their negotiating hand.
edited 5th Mar '15 2:06:34 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
A procrastination in of itself
@Shinra, Share the popcorn? Popcorn of peace? I do actually appreciate the work you do to prevent this place echo chambering, but I feel while you check others someone has to check you don't go overboard in your attempts to prevent echo chambering.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Mutual democratic checks and balances FTW.
A procrastination in of itself
Democratic? Please, nobody would elect me to shit.
The excellent Bellingcat's been tracking
Russian vehicle movements in Ukraine. Some extremely high-tech stuff, like Pantsir AAA systems, not used by the Ukrainian military. Bellingcat also found evidence
that rocket artillery attacks on Ukrainian forces in the summer were launched from within Russia.
edited 4th Mar '15 1:41:06 PM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei