Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital
- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
Shameful Display
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I copy pasted the article from the BBC,the air quotes are theirs.
The problem isn't just the "volunteers" themselves, it's all the equipment, organization and training that goes with them.
When in deadly danger, When beset by doubt, Run in little circles, Wave your arms and shout.
I don't care whose bias it is.
わからない
It is a well-dressed volunteer to come with their own tanks, artillery, anti-air systems, and other support weapons. As I've said hundreds (I think) of pages in this thread before, Putin has taken a leaf (or three) from the Chinese book of "volunteers".
I'm reading this because it's interesting. I think. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, over.
Except most volunteers aren't that. They're relatives or friends across the border. You forget and underestimate how well connected the people on the border are. So save your sarcasm. Again.
わからない
You're missing the point, and to indulge your own "point" further, I'm guessing the Kosovo people also had "volunteers" from, let's say, Albania, because they are friends, relatives, etc...and they also happen to have their very own tanks, artillery, and other weapons systems!!! Except they don't. They may be friends and relatives with people in Kosovo, but that doesn't automatically mean that they're rumbling down (or up, since north is "up") to Kosovo armed to the teeth. Additioanlly, it's quite weird that this so-called "insurgents in the Balkans backed by the West" are using Russian-made weapons bought in the black market...
And I'll stop there because it's OT. And f**k me I just realized now that I responded to someone being so goddamn pedantic. Let me slam my head on the desk...ok there.
- If there were 10 "volunteers" in Ukraine (total), and only one of them has a tank, you will say that "but all of them aren't like that".
- If there were 10 "volunteers" in Ukraine (total), and only four of them have tanks, you will say that "but all them aren't like that".
- If there were 10 "volunteers" in Ukraine (total), and seven of them have tanks, you will say that "but all of them aren't like that".
- If there were 10 "volunteers" in Ukraine (total), and nine of them have tanks, you will say that "but all of them aren't like that".
- tl;dr - you will ignore the fact that at least one of them has a tank.
And yes, I really slammed my head on the desk.
edited 12th Nov '14 11:00:30 PM by entropy13
I'm reading this because it's interesting. I think. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, over.
Cool it, guys. Our arguing here has zero effect on what is happening over there. Anyone got news?
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
More geolocating fun with the "smoking Buk launcher". One of a series of videos that shows a convoy containing the Buk linked to the downing of MH 17 was reportedly filmed near the town of Millerovo. The following demonstrates how it’s possible to use a combination of satellite map imagery and Google Street View imagery to find the exact location the video was filmed.
And you will ignore the fact that most of them DON'T have a tank. That most AREN'T Putin's sockpuppets. That the seperatists have legitimate fears and demands that are being ignored by Kiev at its own risk.
You wanna be hostile, I can respond with just as much hostility. Those who aren't hostile, I respond calmly to. Your choice. It's not pedantry when I'm pointing out something THE MAJORITY is doing.
EDIT-
Only news I have is the tanks Ukraine was gonna send to Congo are no longer going to be. They'll be inducted into the UA.
Pics of Donetsk airport: http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/256211.html
edited 13th Nov '14 7:21:19 AM by FFShinra
HGW XX/7
Showing astonishing technical ability for a bunch of two-bit thugs, the Ukrainian rebels have miraculously managed to build an 1RL232 "Leopard" battlefield radar and a 1RL239 "Lynx" radar, complete with command unit.
How curious.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
I still wish the west would be less indirect in it's support of the Ukraine.
Putin is taking advantage of the pocket war in his own back yard to test some new weapon platforms. How convenient for him.
Sadly, the West has very little to gain by supporting Ukraine more openly, at least until they succeed in reforming their government some more.
Or don't have problems of their own taking priority.
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
The Russians now have a new media outlet up and running. Naturally, their first story is to claim the Western narrative of Russian troops and kit in Eastern Ukraine is false. If they only had chosen a less incriminating photo as "evidence"...
The rebels have launched an attack on Peski and the airport supply lines.
Most of those Russian vehicles are just standing around doing nothing (or at least - not doing anything noticeable).
About the volunteers - there's plenty of both professionals and amateurs fighting for DPR/LPR. Both soldiers of the army, and militia, a lot of them having never even seen a grenade launcher before that. Your bickering is pretty meaningless. Same for the Ukrainian side - both experienced soldiers who have seen action in Iraq and students/truck drivers/businessmen who never held a gun before.
Khto tse, mamo-mamo?
My only point was that there were both, emuran.
Where is Peski?
HGW XX/7
About 6 or 7 kilometres West of Donetsk Airport, and 14 or 15 kilometres North-West of Donetsk City Centre.
If my Google Maps-fu is stronk enough, that is.
edited 14th Nov '14 7:08:49 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Right, that one.
HGW XX/7
Website recommendation: The Interpreter. Run by the Institute of Modern Russia. Very good source of info on Russian goings-on.
Thanks. Was getting it confused with a Piski way north of Luhansk.
Hryvnia has collapsed to 16 hryvnias per 1 USD (from 8 hryvnias in January), the rouble - 47.5 per 1 USD (from 32 in January).
Khto tse, mamo-mamo?
HGW XX/7
Another fake from the Russian press.
This one claims to show a satellite image of a Ukrainian AF jet shooting down MH17. Closer examination of the jet in the photos reveals this. The "Ukrainian fighter" pictured doesn't even match the one the Russians claim to have fired the missile. And the photo puts MH17 50km West of the crash site.
Try harder.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
... What's with the "flashing" in the image's center, around the plane? And that's no fighter jet, that's a civilian airliner! Could they have at least tried for a military cargo plane?
edited 15th Nov '14 7:08:08 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
HGW XX/7
The plane is what the Russians claim is MH17. The flashing is comparing the Russian news channel's "MH17" with a stock image of a Boeing 777 with the Boeing house livery. You can find the stock image the news team used for yourself - as Bellingcat noted, it is the very first result you get when you type "боинг вид сверху"note into Russian Google images. Comme ca.
The Boeing one has "Boeing" written just forward of the front of the wing root, whilst the Malaysian Airline livery
◊ is the word "Malaysian" over the wings.
This fake is so clumsy that I wonder if it was done in an excess of loyalty by an underling - it seems fairly amateurish for the boys from Yasenovo.
EDIT: I should make it clear - the analysis in this post comes from the excellent Bellingcat open-source intelligence site, run by the guy who used to run the Brown Moses blog (that debunked Sy Hersh's brainfart about Turkish sarin in Syria). Check them out. Clever bunch, and a joy to watch in action.
edited 15th Nov '14 7:24:01 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
EDIT- If this is a continuation of the war (and thats a big if), Zaporozhia (apart from the provincial capital itself) is screwed.
edited 12th Nov '14 12:18:58 PM by FFShinra