Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital
- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
He says that, but he won't get in.
Party Crasher
Who knows?
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
HGW XX/7
Six years might make some difference. Depends how much Brussels can beg, borrow, and steal from the various member-states to help them out, and where Ukraine goes economically in the next few years. EADS must be salivating at the prospect of getting their paws on Antonov though.
But I'm thinking that Eastern Europe might be better off taking more initiative outside the EU - a 21st century Intermarium, perhaps?
Schild und Schwert der Partei
I don't know if an Intermarium could be fulfilled. Half of the nations in Pilsudski's plan are already within the EU (to a bigger or lesser extent), Belarus is Russia's annoying sister (yes, the reference is obvious), and it would probably generate a lot of bureaucracy and diplomatic weirdness (at least in the early stages) between them, the EU and Russia. Not to mention that European geopolitics and the institutional inter-structure between organizations would become even more confusing.
HGW XX/7
I don't necessarily mean a literal mini-union; more a deepening of economic, political, and, most of all, military ties.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
I actually think an Intermarium (yes, even at the political level, which would mean reducing the EU and NATO a tad) would be the best and most ideal solution for all involved. Alas, that's unlikely, even at just the military level, because of the EU and NATO and the liabilities they'd have to deal with or the changes they'd have to make to membership and.or standards to mitigate the liabilities..
As to Ukraine joining the EU, even in 6 years, I doubt the EU would spend that much money to get Ukraine given the current mood of the public in Europe, especially considering the corruption in Ukraine is liable to make that money disappear and thus make the whole exercise fruitless. Nevermind the fact that Russia would move in again before that happened.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Ah, I see your point. However, that might lead to create mini-blocs within the EU (the Mediterranean Union and so forth) which could further cause divisions within the EU or even the Council of Europe.
Shameful Display
Yatsenyuk: Russia wants us to freeze Russia's state-controlled energy company Gazprom cut off gas supplies to Ukraine in June because of a row over Kiev's unpaid gas bill, raising concerns that the country may not be able to cover the peak-demand winter season.
The best option for Ukraine is coming to some agreement with Poland to allow cross-border trade, but not the rest of the EU (not yet). Poland has access to the EU's markets, so that would give Ukraine and the EU an indirect access to one another. This would cushion the blow on Ukraine's inefficient businesses while attracting some foreign investment.
Russian malware used by 'privateer' hackers against Ukrainian government.
edited 26th Sep '14 2:52:19 AM by Quag15
Cross-posting from the Russian Politics thread.
So apparently there was a large anti-war rally in Russia a few days ago.
It's interesting, but I'm not really sure how significant it is.
There have been a few since the conflict started. Has yet to amount to much though.
Shameful Display
Hungary has suspended gas flow to Ukraine "indefinitely". Ukrainian state gas firm Naftogaz confirmed the stoppage, saying it was "unexpected and unexplained". Hungary's move came three days after a meeting in Budapest between the head of Russian gas giant Gazprom, Alexei Miller, and Hungary's Prime Minister, Viktor Orban. Gazprom agreed on Friday to boost supplies to Hungary, Reuters news agency reports. However, Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak insisted in an interview published on Friday that re-exporting Russian gas to Ukraine is illegal and could lead to some EU states going without fuel shipments from Gazprom.
Edit: That leaves only Slovakia and Poland.
edited 26th Sep '14 4:08:36 PM by JackOLantern1337
I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
HGW XX/7
Orban really is not a nice fellow. It seems the EU has its own "fifth column", to borrow a phrase seemingly beloved of the Kremin's spin doctors.
edited 26th Sep '14 4:14:56 PM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Orban's already proven himself to be an authoritarian prick on the route to getting Hungary booted from the EU; this isn't surprising.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Shameful Display
Speaking of Ukraine being left in the cold Obama has hinted that sanctions could be relaxed if Russia takes "the path of peace and diplomacy." While I suppose this has always been true, knowing his competency as a leader they will probably be lifted just as the association agreement is about to go through, allowing Russia to kill it. Worse,it sends the wrong signals to the Europeans,many of whom no doubt are eager to lift them. Even worse, it could heighten the divide between the East and West of the EU,with countries like Poland in the Baltic's being under threat, while Russian billionaires launder their money in London.
He's just dangling a carrot- without any details, it's just more political theater. It's always unwise to read too much into any single speech.
America went Leeroy Jenkins on the Ukraine thing. If anything, Obama is aligning the US closer to the European opinion of being more cautious and allowing room to step back.
That said....
You have the right of it.
&
And after that happened, he went on and announced that loading up Hungary's gas stores for the winter is proceeding nicely... fucker.
It's not that he wants to get us booted from the EU, he wants us to leave the EU. As does every single non-socialist party in the country: far left, far right, center, almost everybody wants to leave except the socialists who were in power when we signed up ten years ago.
edited 26th Sep '14 8:44:45 PM by amitakartok
Should probably discuss this in the Eastern Europe thread.
Shameful Display
Slovakia has agreed to restore an old pipeline to provide gas to Ukraine. They have,however, refused to initiate reverse flow,sighting concerns about breaching their agreement with Gazprom.
Who gets gas from Gazprom, anyway?
anyone who imports from Russia IIRC. So, basically the entire EU 
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Pretty much everyone. If I remember right Gazprom is one of the top 5 biggest companies period
Oh really when?
Ukraine plans for EU membership
(Reuters) - Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko said he would present a broad plan of social and economic reforms on Thursday which would allow the former Soviet republic to apply for membership of the European Union in six years.
PS: What does everyone think of the job Poroshenko has been doing as President?
I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.