Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital
- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
Party Crasher
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
They won't be so snarky once Russia decides to invade them, after taking Alaska.
edited 27th Aug '14 3:06:14 PM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Beware the Crazy Man.
This ain't Red Alert people....
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
HGW XX/7
Yes, because Russia has a very successful record of invading winter-bound territory with horrible terrain.
For various historical reasons, this isn't actually fair on the Soviets, but why let facts get in the way of a good joke.
Also this.
As much as Putin would like us to think he is a Bond villain, he's not.
edited 27th Aug '14 3:08:35 PM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Nowhere near enough war dolphins and Chronospheres....yet
Beware the Crazy Man.
The war dolphins can certainly be a thing now that they have Crimea...
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
HGW XX/7
No they can't, war dolphins were an Allied unit. The Russians used Giant Squid in Red Alert 
As long as Yuri doesn't get his Revenge...
Giant squid? Please don't give Putin ideas.
Party Crasher
All I know is that they are already printing cyrillic maps in Yukon.
Ukraine crisis: Nato plans east European bases to counter Russia.
Putin is Yuri.
edited 27th Aug '14 3:17:00 PM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Never Trust
Something that should have been done a decade ago.
Trump delenda est
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Doesn't matter, we'll just go steal all the ore with the chrono miners and poof out when they come to bother us.
Oh really when?
He ain't fully bald yet and doesn't have that device on top of his head. Though I'll grant you that he can control plenty of Russians with plenty of...persuasion.
edited 27th Aug '14 3:21:25 PM by Quag15
Party Crasher
It's all find and dandy 'till the Russians bring out the war bears.
Only complete faith in Yuri Putin can protect you. Only total compliance will save the lives of you and your family.
edited 27th Aug '14 3:24:09 PM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Shameful Display
The fall of Novyansk is now BBC official
And why in the hell did Ukraine agree to turn one of it's pilots over to the Ruskies?
And I don't know about Ukraine, but in our army Killing machine with a skirt is the most badass nickname you can give a female soldier.
Again it might be my American bias showing, but the Russian's treatment of her seems very much like the old Soviet show trials. And their media coverage is fucking ridiculous. Satan's daughter, turned into a zombie? WTF Russia, this insane even for you guys. Regardless, of what happened, I hope she receives a fair trial.
T-72 shoots hole in Russian denial
edited 27th Aug '14 5:52:56 PM by JackOLantern1337
I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
わからない
Just a few days ago, for the first time ever, a giant squid was caught alive by Japanese fishermen. In this regard, another country has the...tentacle advantage (despite what RA 2 says).
I'm reading this because it's interesting. I think. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, over.
Who Am I?
Some more information about the situation in Novoazovsk: '...The latest incursion, which Ukraine’s military said included five armored personnel carriers, was at least the third movement of troops and weapons from Russia across the southeast part of the border this week, further blunting the momentum Ukrainian forces have made in weakening the insurgents in their redoubts of Donetsk and Luhansk farther north."
As the article discusses, one has to wonder whether or not Russia is prepared to allow the separatists to lose, and if not, exactly what the long term outcome of this conflict is likely to be.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Radical Moderate
@Shinra: Geopolitics suggests that the West and Russia are going to have opposite interests in Ukraine, that is true. I'm not particularly bothered, for example, by the idea that the EU tries to make an Association Agreement with Ukraine while Russia tries to get it into the Eurasian Customs Union — that's simple national interest at play, and Ukraine would always need to figure out the best way to balance between these two interest groups. At the same time, over the past few months, Russia is doing way more than pressing its legitimate realpolitik goals, by first supporting an armed separatist rebellion and now taking part in outright invasion. While America and Europe did try to pressure Ukraine over to their side, they never did anything at all comparably against international law and norms (which in this case would have been something like pressuring Lviv and the other Westernmost provinces to secede and form an independent Galicia once Yanukovych turned towards Russia, or plotting an assassination attempt against Yanukovych, or at the very least supporting the move to have Russian no longer be an official language in the country.) Its the scope of its actions, not its mere interests, that paint Russia as the bad guy here.
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
The opinion on the street here is that Russia is not even doing anything in Ukraine anymore and can't please everyone leave it alone and stop blaming it for Ukraine's own infighting. At the same time, sympathy is firmly with the separatists and (as this is much safer to portray) the civilians of Donetsk region, the media is pushing the "humanitarian catastrophe" angle, and lamenting how everyone from Ukraine proper to Europe to USA wants Donetsk citizens to be slaughtered for daring to reject Europe. Organising relief efforts, offering to let the refugees temporary stay in one's house and so on is popular.
Many people also think that USA and Co are deliberately trying to provoke Russia into open intervention, so that they would have an excuse to destroy the country once and for all. But people think that Russian powers that be are not going to take the bait.
As usual, I think that there is some truth in all this, though of course not all the truth.
edited 27th Aug '14 8:35:51 PM by Beholderess
If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common
Who Am I?
It's reasonably conclusive that Russian soldiers are present and fighting within Ukraine.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Beware the Crazy Man.
Ah, but they have supported parties who in turn support removing Russian as an official language.
Also, Russia has more to lose than the West in this particular tussle, so it's reactions will always be more extreme. If this was, say, Moldova, the Russians wouldn't (and haven't, since Moldova is also being feted) react the way they have with Ukraine. I imagine the West's reaction would be far more active/violent if Russia had been trying to lure Finland or something, because Finland is more important to them than Ukraine ever could be.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Radical Moderate
It's more accurate to say that the west has supported parties who have members who support getting rid of Russian as an official language — remember that this particular gambit was vetoed. This is a far cry in magnitude of pursuing interests from supporting armed separatists, taking a part of the country for itself, and launching an invasion.
And while America may not have as much at stake in Ukraine as Russia does, the EU is just as close to Ukraine as Russia, and so the interest in having Russia turn to 'their' camp was roughly equal. Somehow, however, the EU, while working for its interests, still gave much more respect for Ukraine's state sovereignty than Russia did.
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
One party. And that's still an absurd excuse even for the actions of DPR, not mentioning Russia.
About Savchenko the pilot - it's a show trial. Likewise with Oleg Sentsov, a film director that was abducted and arrested in Crimea on suspicion of terrorism.
The DPR leader Zakharchenko has announced that a lot of Russian regular troops on leave are fighting for DPR. That's the second time in two press conferences that he has messed up.
Khto tse, mamo-mamo?
Beware the Crazy Man.
Yeah, but it shows intent. And again, Russia has more to lose in this than the West does. So they'll act more desperately.
Let's see what happens when the new Rada is voted in. The guys who vetoed it will get purged out to prevent that from happening again.
As to equal importance, no. The nations that border Ukraine that are also in the EU are second-tier in terms of importance. They aren't Germany or France. In Russia's case, it's the core of the Russian state that borders Ukraine.
I'd also argue that while the West may be heeding Ukraine's state sovereignity, they're manipulating Ukraine to do their dirty work for them vis a vis Russia. They started the ball rolling on this crisis by offering Yanukovich terms they knew he'd never agree to. That ended up snowballing into the present crisis. Ukrainian lives are being spent because of this particular tussle and the West puts ZERO skin in the game other than to cheer them on and offer them promises they can't and won't keep.
Likewise, Russia doesn't respect Ukrainian national sovereignity whatsoever, but they at least are more honest about what they offer.
This is still a Grey versus Grey environment. Just because they use different tactics doesn't change the greyness of it.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
"The guys who vetoed it will get purged to prevent that from happening again". Fascinating, but what are you basing that prediction on? Not mentioning that Ukraine would have another Maydan if someone tried to make the country authoritarian again, so far, the "guys who vetoed it" are heading for a majority win. Also, if we begin splitting hairs, the intent of one party does not the intent of the country or the government maketh. Especially with the messy panopticum that is the Rada.
Poroshenko has officially declared that Russia has invaded Ukraine.
edited 28th Aug '14 3:23:24 AM by emuran
Khto tse, mamo-mamo?
So, Canada's NATO twitter account is snarky as hell.
Schild und Schwert der Partei