Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Not a Tree
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
e.g., Turkey is primarily Turkish and Iran is primarily Persian, but people have the bad habit of lumping both country as "Arabic" (and often with the emphasis on the first syllable, Pierce Hawthorne-style).
edited 12th Jul '14 5:12:32 PM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
There is an unfortunate tendency to use Muslim and Arab as interchangeable despite the fact that most Muslims are not Arab. It's kind of like how people in the west think of all East Asians as the same when there are really big differences between them.
Not a Tree
It's too bad Phylogeography got such a bad rap due to racism and ableism, because as much as we've tried to nail down this whole race thing, it would be so much more convenient if it weren't for how complex reality actually is. But I digress.
edited 12th Jul '14 5:27:22 PM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
United Earth
All of this is irrelevant. I doubt you'd find many people willing to call Nasser or the Egyptians non-Arabs. Arab-ness, as it is understood nowadays, is defined mostly by the language; ethnicity is not a factor. Given that a word's definition in a language is a function of its usage, one might argue a semantic shift, but the current, No. 1 meaning is clear: ethnicities and tribes that have Arabic as their main language. Persians are not Arabs, Turks and Kurds are not Arabs, Pakistani are not Arabs, Berbers are not Arabs.
edited 12th Jul '14 5:30:15 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Not a Tree
Nasser was likewise, kind of a self-involved asshole and a demagogue, succeeded by the imperfect but much more amenable Anwar Sadat who was assassinated for his troubles.
Back to Palestine, at least Yasser Arafat made eventual appeals towards peace in his later years, even if he was a thoroghly corrupt politician (but that's something of an oxymoron).
edited 12th Jul '14 5:44:48 PM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
They worship kittens in Egypt, you know.
Arabness is supposed to be an ethnic identification, how is ethnicity not a factor? And it's often meant to take precedence over an Arab's other allegiances, not to simply be an indication of one's primary language.
To me, an Arab is anyone who chooses to identify as one. But the modern definition is, in my eyes, an artificial one created for political purposes, so I personally don't consider myself an Arab.
edited 12th Jul '14 6:01:11 PM by Tyler
Did you know that 90% of household dust is made from dead human skin? That's what you are to me.
To be continued in the general middle east thread. It's a worthwhile topic.
scratching at .8, just hopin'
I've heard of the 2009 Amnesty International findings that Hamas does not ask or direct civilians to stay in the line of fire, which is usually countered by arguments that the civilians do so of their own free will. If that's the case, despair might be a motivator. I am reminded of the concept of domicide/topocide; this quote sheds some light on the mindset.
edited 12th Jul '14 7:54:02 PM by RadicalTaoist
Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Not a Tree
What's that saying? When your only tool is a missile, every Palestinian looks like Hamas?
Anyway, I think this video bears resharing:
edited 12th Jul '14 8:54:40 PM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
They worship kittens in Egypt, you know.
It's a good point. But irrespective of the general trend, Hamas has a duty to keep its civilians out of harm's way to the best of its ability. Which means, at the very least, it should not fire rockets from civilian areas or hide weapons caches in residential buildings. And it certainly should stop encouraging people to "defend their homes with their bodies" in the media. Despite knowing this leads to civilian casualties, they still do it anyway. ِِ
Indiana Solo
Yea really. A government's supposed to protect it's citizens.
I'm baaaaaaack
Not a Tree
,
Hamas isn't a government and Netanyahu has shown absolutely no interest in given credence to the "two state solution" whatsoever were they to be considered one.
edited 12th Jul '14 9:05:52 PM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
Indiana Solo
It rules the Gaza strip, claims to represent those who live there, have a military wing, ect. They are a government by definition.
Statehood is not a requirement of being a government. they want to rule people, they're a government.
edited 12th Jul '14 9:10:21 PM by Joesolo
I'm baaaaaaack
They worship kittens in Egypt, you know.
That is so very irrelevant it makes my head spin. Hamas rules the Gaza strip, they are responsible for citizens of the Gaza strip. If a Gazan civil servant dies of a work accident, for example, whose responsibility will that be?
Did you know that 90% of household dust is made from dead human skin? That's what you are to me.
Not a Tree
State Dept: ‘No Evidence That Hamas Plays Any Role’ in Palestinian Government
My apologies if I choose to believe the US State department in the matters of the affairs of an occupied, sovereign state. I imagine that head-spinning condition must be quite inconvenient.
edited 12th Jul '14 9:43:25 PM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
They worship kittens in Egypt, you know.
Yes, it is. Please stop doing that to my poor head.
Again, you're talking about an entirely irrelevant matter. There are a few Logic Bombs in that press release which I won't get into, but what part exactly indicated to you that the US State Department thinks Hamas doesn't rule the Gaza strip?
edited 12th Jul '14 10:12:05 PM by Tyler
Did you know that 90% of household dust is made from dead human skin? That's what you are to me.
OY! KEEP TO THE GODDAMN NEWS! REREAD THE DAMN OP AND TATTOO IT TO YOUR OWN FOREHEADS IF YOU HAVE TO!
Ahem.
If y'all wanna have this discussion, there exists an exciting feature called a PM! Ain't that exciting? Why don't y'all take a gander and see how that suits you? Hm? Leave the thread alone.
United Earth
Do caricatures and punditries count as news?
◊
I object to that picture, as it is completely misleading... we don't run like that, that's a silly way to run.
edited 13th Jul '14 8:04:58 AM by bladeofdarkness
Indiana Solo
Well you know what they say, it's the thought that counts.
in this case being "kill those israelis" vs "stop these rocket attacks".
I'm baaaaaaack
HGW XX/7
Round and round and round we go.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Elephants reacting to sirens at the Ramat Gan Zoo.
@ FF Shinra:
Hamas is currently in the news. Therefore, discussing what Hamas does and how it operates is entirely on-topic.
Not a Tree
Really should have thought of this yesterday, but who says Israel doesn't work on the Sabbath?
Israel launches overnight ground raid; death toll tops 168; drops leaflets to warn residents
More than 1100 wounded. 70% of casualties are civilian with 32 children among the dead; Gazans are generally not allowed to enter Israel and the Egypt border is closed, leaving residents asking "Where do we go?" But those damn dirty insurgents scared the elephants so fuck em.
IDF also raided a missile site with light injuries to four soldiers but no casualties and no word on whether they succeeded at whatever their goal was there.
edited 13th Jul '14 12:24:37 PM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
The definition of "Arabs" varies. The idea that anyone who speaks Arabic is automatically an Arab was at the heart of 20th century Arab Nationalism; but many people, including this troper, find it patently absurd. For one thing, the numerous dialects that people group together as "Arabic" are not all mutually intelligible, and all are very different from standard Arabic. And it's not as if a common language necessarily means a common ethnicity. Many colonised peoples now primarily speak the language of their colonisers, for example, but nobody considers them ethnically the same. Similarly, most of the ethnic minorities in the Middle East and North Africa primarily speak Arabic, does that make them Arabs, regardless of anything else?
But back to topic...
Did you know that 90% of household dust is made from dead human skin? That's what you are to me.