Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
that's actually 100% correct.
until the we can have a clear answer regarding which way the wind blows, talking about any kind of "solution" to the conflict is pointless.
5 years from now, Ramallah could be under the same management that much of Iraq and Syria are under.
what good would any treaty signed with them be then ?
edited 12th Jul '14 2:59:56 AM by bladeofdarkness
They worship kittens in Egypt, you know.
A whole bunch of . I don't think the situations are comparable either. Whatever danger Iraq may or may not have posed to America, it had not initiated attacks on American cities. If Saddam had somehow managed to directly, visibly attempt to murder American citizens, I imagine the initial opposition to the Iraq war would be greatly lessened.
edited 12th Jul '14 3:00:05 AM by Tyler
Did you know that 90% of household dust is made from dead human skin? That's what you are to me.
I'm just been sitting on the sidelines in this thread, but I feel like there's a lot of Hume's Guillotine interfering with a healthy perspective regarding the Arab-Israeli Conflict.
Not really a huge fan of how the Israeli government has been conducting itself, but...yeah...I'll let you all talk amongst yourselves again.
Gunpla is amazing!
The fact that you say they should "Accept Defeat" disgusts me, as if that means Palestinians should just roll over and do whatever their oh so peaceful masters tell them to do.
Just saw a video of a father finding his son killed in the bombing. If I was that dad I'd be picking up a rocket too. Thats why this shit won't end unless Israel stops or they go full on Genocide against Palestine.
And oh man, I just saw a thread on another forum where this IDF claimed that disabled children and nurses were "protecting weapon caches" and thats why they got bombed and killed. And that IDF News claims the same thing on TV.
Like, fucking really?
edited 12th Jul '14 9:12:24 AM by Thorn14
Or until we would get that Orwellian drone occupation force from the beginning of the new Robocop reboot. There is always a third option.
Look, we don't enjoy bombing civilians, but they are the ones who hide among them. yes, they do it because they have to. If Hamas would wear uniforms and build official bases we would have wipe them out long ago. But just because they have a good reason to do it doesn't mean we just have to roll over and ignore their attempts to kill us with missiles that only became 'harmless' a year and a half ago and could return to being a rain of death as soon as they would develop some kind of anti-radar mechanism.
edited 12th Jul '14 9:38:56 AM by nnokwoodeye1
sorry if you're "disgusted" at my phrasing, but that's beside the point.
they HAVE been defeated, utterly and completely so. they are NOT going to "liberate" one single inch of land by force, and i seriously doubt even Hamas are delusional enough to believe otherwise.
the "armed resistance" approach has failed them completely, and their continued insistence on blindly following it at this point is not only getting them nowhere, its actively damaging their future prospects.
surrender and negotiate. anything else is just wasting lives.
edited 12th Jul '14 9:43:13 AM by bladeofdarkness
A procrastination in of itself
This might sound insane and first but think about it, would you really put it past Hamas to stash their weapon caches somewhere that disabled children are kept, so as to use said children as human shields?
Because to me that sounds totally Hamas.
edited 12th Jul '14 9:47:05 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
where do you think their entire leadership is hiding... Al-Shifa hospital in Gaza.
its not even a secret, their spokesperson conducts interviews from the parking lot.
they hide weapons and personal where they think we are unlikely to be willing to strike.
Gunpla is amazing!
That to me sounds like IDF propaganda.
You don't surrender and negotiate when it looks like the people fighting you are going to systematically take your homes and wipe you out.
Don't you know when you put someone in a corner they're going to fight to the bitter end?
edited 12th Jul '14 9:54:56 AM by Thorn14
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
The issue is that once you surrender you have nothing to negotiate with. It's a classic prisoner's dilemma.
Depending on how you interpret the West Bank's treatment as the peaceful alternative, you may or may not think Hamas is on to something. The people of the West Bank live in relative peace, but corralled into slowly-shrinking lands. I would personally prefer the West Bank approach, but there's "good" (for a certain value of good) reason for Hamas to keep trying it their way.
Plus it helps the PA in their negotiations because it creates Good Cop/Bad Cop on a macro scenario. Impotent though the bad cop may be, it shows the Israelis what dicking around with the good cop too much could create: rockets from *both* directions.
who's trying to still anyone's house in Gaza ?
they used to have our good will and sympathy. those would have been useful cards, but they kinda blew that one.
and the PA and Hamas are enemies, Hamas does not want to help the PA.
edited 12th Jul '14 9:58:16 AM by bladeofdarkness
United Earth
It stands to reason that one should negotiate, then surrender. What you're asking for is "unconditional surrender"; what kind of negociation then? "Here, I surrendered all of my weapons and kneeled before you. What now? Are you going to give me what I want?" Are they?
Pretty much sums it up.
edited 12th Jul '14 9:57:53 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Surrender the military aspect (which they already lost), and focus entirely on the political aspect.
we don't actually WANT to rule over 3-4 million Palestinians, so getting them out of our hair is what they give us. in return they get some (and only SOME) of what they want, which include a sizable landmass to create a state/autonomous region on,
edited 12th Jul '14 10:01:43 AM by bladeofdarkness
Gunpla is amazing!
If they surrendered the military aspect, why would they gain ANY political interests to go their way?
Israel has zero interest in letting Palestine be its own sovereign state and even moved to block it when Palestine went to UN for it.
If what you say is true, then the 1947 borders should be fine, as Palestine has said they wanted.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:05:32 AM by Thorn14
the military aspect isn't gaining them any political interests NOW.
the "political interest" basically boils down to getting them out of our hair.
in exchange for that, they get a state, with some caveats.
Edit: as for the 1947 lines - tough noogies, they're 67 years too late for that.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:07:31 AM by bladeofdarkness
A procrastination in of itself
Really? You honestly think that Hamas, an intentionally recognised terrorist organisation, would have an issue with hiding their weapon stores under the beds of disabled children?
I hate to break it to you but Hamas are not nice guys, they deliberately target school children for killing based purely on their nationality, many of them want very much to commit genocide against the Israel people, why on earth do you think they wouldn't use children in Gaza as human shields? What on earth makes you think that Hamas of all people are going to draw a moral line in the sand and say "no that would be inhumane of us to do"?
I've spent a lot of time criticizing Israel in this thread, and with good reason, but seriously, the fact that the Israeli government are often assholes and likely have their own share of would be genociders does not make Hamas good guys by any stretch of the imagination.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
what would we gain if we would surrendered the military aspect like you want us to?
edited 12th Jul '14 10:08:09 AM by nnokwoodeye1
are you talking to me ?
Gunpla is amazing!
I'm not saying Hamas are good guys too but you've given me zero proof that Hamas is shoving disabled children and nurses onto weapon caches other than "Well they're bad so they're doing it."
Hamas isn't the government of the Palestinian State, it has a political and military wing. The extreme parties in Knesset do not represent all Israelis.
The militant wing of Hamas could be seen inadvertently holding the Palestinian population hostage, even if many are willing hostages.
There is literally zero reason for Palestine to accept those terms. Also Israel has time in and time out blocked any attempt at Palestine from being its own separate sovereign nation.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:13:57 AM by Thorn14
they want to have a state, they have to negotiate one. they don't want to negotiate, they can't have a state.
they can do as they like.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:14:42 AM by bladeofdarkness
Gunpla is amazing!
How does one negotiate when you literally have zero bargaining power and the nation you are negotiating with refuses to do so and is taking away your homes illegally?
To me it sounds like your concept of "Negotiation" is "Unconditional Surrender" which isn't going to happen.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:15:33 AM by Thorn14
United Earth
"We want them out of our hair" suggests "mass deportation" rather than "giving them a sovereign state".- Plus, what are you going to do with the Arab Israeli? Are they finally getting the right to buy land?
edited 12th Jul '14 10:18:36 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
no, i was talking to thorn
Gunpla is amazing!
I was implying that Palestine surrender militarily? When?
Or do you mean Israel? No where did I say Israel surrender...
edited 12th Jul '14 10:17:39 AM by Thorn14
On the other hand, one could say that direct negotiations between Tel Aviv and Ramallah now might have been helpful, whilst everyone who might interfere is distracted.
edited 12th Jul '14 2:57:41 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei