Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
at the present rate... around 6-8 weeks of no rocket fire at all.
8-12 months of limited rocket fire.
and then around 3-6 months of slowly increasing rocket fire.
and then we do it again.
Gunpla is amazing!
And I"ll bet the Palestinian death and injury toll will be a lot lot higher.
I don't know.
operation cast lead in 2008 had over 1,000 Palestinian deaths.
operation pillar of defense in 2012 had around 200.
so far, this one has around 100.
the death toll tends to get lower every time.
Gunpla is amazing!
A Million Is a Statistic at its finest.
you said "And I"ll bet the Palestinian death and injury toll will be a lot lot higher."
I point out a steady decrease of Palestinian casualties over the course of the last few rounds - which seems to suggest the next round would have even fewer casualties.
so you accuse me of A Million Is a Statistic thinking.
is there an actual POINT you're trying to make ?
edited 11th Jul '14 11:25:35 PM by bladeofdarkness
Not a Tree
Try more than 120 Palestinian civilian deaths and nearly 800 injuries.
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
well, its still ongoing. things change.
speaking of change, it looks like there might be a ground invasion after all.
Imagine the next situation. You are a straight A student. One day some kid come to you and demands your lunch money. You refuse and he tries to hit you. You dodge and push him against the wall. He runs away. The next day he jumps at you from behind. You overpower him and then beat the crap out of him. He report you to the principle and you get detention (and told that "he started it" is not an excuse). A week later he comes at you with a knife. You disarm him and in the process accidently break his arm. Then the police get involve...
Yes, violence is a lousy solution which creates a lot of problems, but it's still better than just giving Hamas are lunch money.
Gunpla is amazing!
Your analogy is terrible and also ignores the part where you've been slowly taking everything that kid owns and he wants your lunch money because you've been making sure he can't afford any food.
Also instead of him coming after you with a knife, its more like he swings at you in arm and then you bash his head into a brick wall 20 times.
Actually screw it, your analogy is terrible.
edited 12th Jul '14 12:42:30 AM by Thorn14
Not a Tree
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Now take that analogy and break the arm of every student within a hundred yard radius and rip the gymnasium to the ground. Then it would be slightly more accurate.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I'm not going to dignify that insulting question with an answer.
edited 12th Jul '14 1:20:13 AM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
V
Let's get straight to the point.
Chi, Thorn, do you believe that Israel should exist as a nation, as an idea?
Keep Rolling On
I thought we had a moratorium on that kind of discussion as it has a habit of going out of hand.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
there is.
No, the bully doesn't have any money because the father of the kid he tried to bully put his father out of business. And the knife is a metaphor for the rockets, something that would have been extremely dangerous if the intended victim wouldn't happen to be a ninja (to clarify, the iron dome project almost didn't happen. a lot of people in the army thought it was a waste of money)
@nnokwoodeye 1
no offence, but i kinda agree with them that this isn't a fitting analogy. I know you're trying to simplify a highly complex problem, but i don't think this problem CAN be simplified.
we aren't streight A students, and they aren't simply bullies, and the whole situation is much more complex then that.
you had two, competing, national movements in the same area, and when attempts to divide the area peacefully failed, a war broke out.
we won, against all the odds, and we aren't the least bit ashamed about that part. they lost, damn nearly everything, and their own refusal to accept defeat is why this conflict persists till this day.
this current round just emphasizes how pointless their "resistance" is at this stage.
yes I know. it just annoying that people keep getting angry at us for things they would have done themselves in a similar situation
so do i. 
Not a Tree
Oh yes, I remember when the Native Americans retaliated for the forceful encroachment to their homelands under the guise of "Manifest Destiny", and then we responded with mass slaughter, smallpox blankets, and the Trail of Tears. It was shitty then and it's shitty now.
edited 12th Jul '14 2:03:28 AM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
remind me again what you'd do if they started launching terrorism campaigns against american cities today ?
And then you did it again in Iraq. That's how humans works
edited 12th Jul '14 2:06:07 AM by nnokwoodeye1
United Earth
No, it isn't. The two situations are very different.
More importantly, "people tend to do stupid thing A in situation B, therefore, when we do the same, it's okay" is very shitty reasoning.
edited 12th Jul '14 2:39:09 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
HGW XX/7
"No, you!" isn't a massively helpful debate tactic either.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
@The Handle
how are the situations different ? ones country gets attacked from an enemy territory, and you retaliate by attacking said territory.
@Achaemenid
it IS when the subject of the debate (at least, the one developing between me and Nnokwoodeye 1) is "you'd do the exact same thing under the situation, so what makes you think you can criticize me for it".
granted, its not a good argument most of the time, but in this situation it kinda fits.
V
Thinking again, whatever will happen next in the Arab-Israeli conflict is dependent on what happens in the wider "Arab Spring". Whatever happens in Syria and Iraq will affect Israel and the Palestiniansnote .
It may be that only after the dust has settled in the region that something mightnote be able to be done about this conflict.
Keep Rolling On
I just wonder what Israel has to gain from this. Its not going to be deterrent (Hell it'll make the hatred stronger).