Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
HGW XX/7
Just turn off Iron Dome and don't warn anyone about the rockets. Once a couple of Qassams land on a school then nobody will be talking nonsense about how Hamas' rocket barrages are "harmless" or "ineffectual".
edited 11th Jul '14 3:05:46 PM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Not a Tree
Gaza civilian death toll over 100.
At least 700 Palestinian civilians injured and 200 homes destroyed.
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
V
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Quite. I don't like how the Left in particular forget that Israelis are people. Indeed, it's amazing the Israelis have survived and prospered for so long in a very tough neighbourhood — and probably how ordinary it is most of time.
How many Israeli?
edited 11th Jul '14 3:14:14 PM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
Not a Tree
By Israeli air strikes? Probably not a whole bloody lot.
Orthodox Jews - and all Jews - owe President Obama a big 'thank you'
Ben Shapiro can go fuck himself. The Iron Dome program was bought and paid for by the Obama administration, so he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
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Dammit. Can't access the full article anymore.
edited 11th Jul '14 3:25:31 PM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
HGW XX/7
Paywalled.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
A procrastination in of itself
I say the Israelis just issue start issuing press statements along the lines of "during the fighting to eliminate the Hamas rocket post Hamas used [number of civilian dead] as humans shields/hostages." Seriously, any other part of the world if a terror group started shooing from a civilian position and the human shields got killed the blame would go on the terror group.
Or they issue a statement asking for the nations bitching about civilian casualties to provide a peacekeeping force for Gaza.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
V
@ chi: By rockets fired from Gaza. Obviously.
Keep Rolling On
Not a Tree
Because Israel demolishes Gaza settlements indiscriminately killing over one hundred, injuring over seven hundred, and destroying more than two hundred homes, you're automatically turning "civilians" into "human shields". Okay. At the very least you still acknowledge that they're human.
edited 11th Jul '14 3:32:44 PM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
V
Nobody's hands are clean in this conflict, chi. Let alone the whole Middle East.
Or would you prefer Achaemenid's idea of switching Iron Dome off and letting the rockets fall where they may?
After all, they're only Jewsnote .
edited 11th Jul '14 3:41:54 PM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
A procrastination in of itself
The number of injured is "according to the Palestinian Health Ministry.", so I'd take it with some salt, likewise the death toll if that's where it's coming from.
Plus it's kinda hard to fire discriminately when the guy shooting at you is deliberately putting as many civilians as he can between the two of you, while continuing to shoot at you.
There's a lot I'll happily blame on the Israeli government, but the death of people Hamas deliberately use as human shields? That's on Hamas.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
No: the best response would be to just let them run out of rockets. Repeatedly. After enough rounds of not hitting anything important, let alone killing many (if any) Israelis and not getting a response in the form of air strikes...
What would Hamas have?
I betcha: 15 years of turning the other cheek, and Hamas would have no leg to stand on to drum up martyrs (after trying more rounds of suicide bombers, it has to be admitted).
Sure, fewer Palestinians wind up dead, and a few more Israelis get killed by suicide bombers (they're quite a bit more accurate than the rockets). But... at the same time, Israel doesn't chase after Hamas' stick, either. Or provide them with innocent deaths to parade.
edited 11th Jul '14 3:45:34 PM by Euodiachloris
A procrastination in of itself
I'm not sure if it's possible for Hamas to run out of rockets, and the Iron Dome isn't perfect, things will get though, a large amount of the current low damage level to Israel is probably due to the Israeli air force blowing up a lot of launchers.
Plus considering some of the things they're targeting it's relay not worth risking them getting a hit, keep in mind that Hamas are shooting at a nuclear power plant.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
And, repeatedly racking up the Palestinian deaths in retaliation helps... how?
Passive-aggressive can be used in many ways. <shrugs> Get a bloody nose (or even a crater), and it can be used. <shrugs> Besides, isn't it time Israel switched to solar? 
edited 11th Jul '14 3:48:43 PM by Euodiachloris
A procrastination in of itself
In the short run it prevents the racking up on Israeli deaths, in the long run it does bugger all, both ways.
Letting Hamas just shoot away isn't gonna work, even without civilian deaths they've got several things they can use to recruit, the blockade (the full lifting of which would ensure that Hamas never runs out of ammo) and the Settlements just off the top of my head. Hell the deaths/imprisonment of random murders in the West Bank works for recruitment.
And solar is not much use if they're going to be always in the shade due to constant rocket attacks.
edited 11th Jul '14 3:53:20 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Not a Tree
Palestinians are "trapped" in Gaza in "lopsided conflict", Brian Williams says
Netanyahu gives zero shits about a two state solution. Blowing Gaza to smithereens lets him clear out the rubble to expand new settlements. Middle Eastern gentrification at its finest.
There has to be actual deaths to "rack up".
edited 11th Jul '14 4:00:08 PM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
I don't think they can target something as specific as the reactor. And it's not a power plant, unfortunately.
edited 11th Jul '14 4:03:14 PM by ManInGray
Not a Tree
Oh yeah, more than 1000 totally legitimate, military targets that just so happened to demolish over 200 homes. Because that makes sense.
Yes, some incredibly biased yahoo's blog is a super reliable source of information. Not that you haven't made your own bias in this more than adequately clear, MIG.
"Unfortunately"? What exactly are you implying with that choice of words?
edited 11th Jul '14 4:11:36 PM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
Storing munitions in so many homes may not make sense to you, but Hamas thinks otherwise.
And I'm implying that nuclear power plants are a powerful and clean source of energy with an undeserved bad reputation, and there should be more of them.
Not a Tree
Are you sure it wasn't a power plant? All news sources pretty much disagree with you on that.
Hamas: We attempted to hit the nuclear reactor in Dimona
edited 11th Jul '14 4:25:01 PM by chi_mangetsu
"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
A procrastination in of itself
X3 Seeing as Hamas is estimated to have "a core of several hundred members who receive military style training" and "an estimated 10,000 operatives "of varying degrees of skill and professionalism" who are members of the internal security forces, Hamas and their supporters."[1] along with weapon/ammo storage sites I'd say 1000 legit targets makes sense, seeing as everyone involved in the military operations of Hamas is a valid military target.
As for over 200 homes being demolished, I'm surprised the number isn't higher, when you're targeting a military group that hides within civilian structures civilian structures are gonna get destroyed.
edited 11th Jul '14 4:22:55 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
They worship kittens in Egypt, you know.
Until a full investigation is made, as it likely will be after the UN roundly condemns Israel, we cannot be sure, but it is a fact that many Hamas rockets actually cause casualties among Gazans, so it's a reasonable assumption that Hamas is contributing to the death toll with its hundreds of rockets fired.
Did you know that 90% of household dust is made from dead human skin? That's what you are to me.
The Dimona nuclear resource facility is not a power plant. though it does have a reactor.
putting that aside, something to note is that so far, the Palestinian death toll is very disproportionate to the number of attacks.
Israel claims to have conducted over 1,000 bombing runs, and the deal toll is about 100 - less then 1 death per 10 bombing runs. which is nuts, when you consider how crowded the Gaza stip is.
you can call it disproportionate use of force all you like, but you cant argue that its indiscriminate.
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
I don't think Israel is being entirely honest about those death figures
Oh really when?
the death figures are Palestinian claims.
edited 11th Jul '14 10:17:45 PM by bladeofdarkness
you know, I wonder if people would have preferred it if instead of airstrikes we would build our own crude rockets and launch them at Gaza every time they fire at us. I mean that would be "symmetrical warfare" which is exactly what people keep complaining we don't do.