Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
(Avatar by Coffee)
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Did you miss the part where, in order to get to Jerusalem, you have to go through borders Israel controls?
A veto was carried out due to a UN resolution that condemns Trump for obvious reasons.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
How does that pertain to this thread's subject?
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
The US vetoed a resolution condemning Trump for moving the US embassy to Jerusalem.
The post two above was unclear, what with all the things that the UN could be condemning Trump for.
UN called together an emergency meeting to vote on the issue tomorrow.
Trump's response was outright declaring that any country that votes against him on this issue will face retaliation from the US. The US' UN representative confirmed that she was ordered by Trump to write down every country that votes against him and hand the list over to him, forwarding this ultimatum to 193 UN member states with a warning that Trump will take it as a personal attack against him if they don't fall in line.
The Palestinian and Turkish foreign ministers both condemned the ultimatum as attempted intimidation, with the latter stating that Might Makes Right isn't how the world works anymore.
edited 20th Dec '17 3:29:34 PM by amitakartok
United Earth
Trump's anti-diplomacy is amazing.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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The Turkish FM is hypocritical like usual considering that they're still prosecuting people for insulting the Sultan Erdowie Erdowo Erdogan. So is the Palestinian FM, considering that the PA is effectively an authoritarian dictatorship.
Truth to be told? (And I'm a bit disgusted with saying this:) Trump is not wrong to say that. The USA isn't obliged to help anybody, and can decide to do what it wants with its own money.
edited 20th Dec '17 9:40:22 PM by desdendelle
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
United Earth
Sure, sure, America first. No one is disputing that. Or that the leaders of authoritarian regime have no moral ground to stand on when complaining about others' appeal to force.
But the USA have revealed in a very blatant way how international aid functions as a form of diplomatic tit-for-tat, by bluntly using it as a form of blackmail. People tend to react poorly to that. And, in the future, except in cases of absolute desperation, people will likely be wary of accepting help from someone who's likely to lord it over them like that.
It's a bit like how the US threatened to be an unreliable NATO ally, prompting European member states to start working seriously on developing their own independent alliance.
Furthermore, the bluntness of the move is sure to provoke backlash, and not just against the USA.
I told you to beware of fucking antisemitic morons bearing gifts.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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As opposed to anti-Semitic morons bringing threats of destruction (like the Iranian regime) or crypto-anti-Semites bringing covert threats of destruction (like most European leftists)?
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
United Earth
Not as opposed to, but in addition to. As for the latter, citation needed. And give a proper research study, not some bullshit poll.
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Thank you for spelling that out.
edited 21st Dec '17 3:08:35 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
It's really incompetent diplomacy, that's what it is. Trump's global unpopularity means that no foreign politician will want to be seen as kowtowing to his bullying by changing their foreign policy decisions. If anything, I think Trump's threats might encourage even regimes that might otherwise have been sympathetic to acknowledging Jerusalem as Israel's capital to vote with Egypt's UN resolution just to be able to score good publicity by defying Trump.
The same as the US isn’t obliged to help anyone nobody is obliged to help the US, part of the existing agreements between the US and it’s allies are not to be a dick publicly and threaten people, the US has broken that part of the deal and shouldn’t be surprised when it faces consequences for that.
I will also take a source on most European leftists being anti-Semitic (or even anti-Israel (which is different from being opposed to the current Israeli government)), some certainly are, but I questions the idea of most.
United Earth
I Told You So. *shrugs*
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
We'll have to see if Trump'll save money by withdrawing foreign aid and investment.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
In other news, one of my mom's Whats App conversations had a news piece talking about Israel lodging a formal protest to the Danish government over a recent newspaper caricature where a Palestinian is spanking Trump while proclaiming "Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine!" I can't seem to find anything on the subject, though; not an article, nor a picture of the caricature (and I've seen the pic on my mom's phone; the dialogue was in English, BTW).
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
An investigation into the gradual erosion of press freedom in Israel.
United Earth
I'm only surprised they haven't been doing this since much earlier.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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Yediot's publisher Noni Mozes is involved in one of Bibi's corruption cases (the one where he agreed to cover Bibi favourably if Bibi would push through legistlation that would hurt Israel Hayom, which is the pro-Bibi rag that's been taking bites out of Yediot's market share), so I'm honestly not surprised they've been taking government money... but this isn't a limitation of press freedom, as the government isn't limiting anything. It's just plain old corruption.
In other news, I find this article about stuff happening on Israel's northern border pretty interesting, mainly because it isn't a doom-and-gloom "we're all doomed because of Trump" piece.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Corruption of the press by government entities is a limitation of press freedom because it ties the press to the government’s agenda. Basically, journalists will have a more difficult time reporting dirt on a minister if their editor is in that minister’s pocket. It’s why Freedom House’s rankings are based on a combination of legal, political, and economic freedom - laws aren’t the only way to inhibit journalism.
That said, the article does mention that the Israeli government plans to restrict the scope of freedom of information requests, which is as obvious an abridgement of freedom of the press as you can imagine.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Guatemala is the next country to announce the gradual move of its embassy to Jerusalem.
FYI, Guatemala's a recipient of Israeli arms/vehicles.
United Earth
De Guatemala à Guatepeor, as they say.
edited 26th Dec '17 12:46:29 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Also, Guatemala has been heavily dependent on the US for most of its (frankly horrifying) history.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Also you’d be amazed at how long a gradual move can take.
Especially for an impoverished nation. Or one with a gutted State Department for that matter...
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
I suppose if you really wanted to you could send MALBATT, but I doubt they'll be allowed to cross the Lebanon-Israel border.
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot