Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Oh, bother.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Well, it is Trump.
Disgusted, but not surprised
United Earth
Beware the gifts of f**king morons.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Galaxy News Radio
I'll favor the gifts of fucking morons over the nonsensical hand wringing of people who are so terrified of upseting the staus quo so much that they'd rather just allow the situation to remain poor. We'll see where the chips fall.
Better to rip off the band aid. Any wound that doesn't stop bleeding after 50 + years probably won't be solved with a band aid. Time to emputate this praticular issue.
edited 6th Dec '17 4:34:41 AM by bladeofdarkness
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
United Earth
Well, please explain to me, what is the issue, exactly, what does it entail, and why is the current change something that you seem to welcome?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
...........
So, about rolling up to Detroit and flattening it without regard to the people actually trying to turn things around. That's sorting out a much smaller wound.
Don't see many eager to try it, though.
Because it's just as dumb.
The problem isn't Jerusalem being a capital of two counties.
United Earth
Berlin pulled that one off for a few decades. It was awkward, but manageable.
Though the idea that there's two countries there is questionable unto itself.
edited 6th Dec '17 4:46:45 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Galaxy News Radio
The current "peace negotiations" - as much as there IS any - has several points of disagreements on which the sides simply can't agree on.
who "owns" Jerusalem is one such point.
This decision on Trumps part effectively makes that decision FOR the sides - whether or not they like it - instead of waiting for an agreement on the matter that the sides simply won't reach.
Now there's one less point of disagreement.
edited 6th Dec '17 4:45:34 AM by bladeofdarkness
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Isreal and Palestine are not East and West Germany. And, Jerusalem is a religious powder keg and repeat primer in how many wars over how many centuries?
Having the massive lump of accumulated grudges as a state capital at all is a horrible idea. For anybody in the region.
Poor thing should play to its strength of centuries: tourist it up as an independent city state and add charging invaders a mint for trying to use it as an excuse for the latest round of wars via the UN, or something.
edited 6th Dec '17 5:27:14 AM by Euodiachloris
Galaxy News Radio
Laughter is good for the soul. And one should always be willing to rethink their positions in light of new evidence.
For now, I'll gamble on being optimistic about this rather then assume the worst.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
In light of precedent set by the past seven decades in this conflict, I believe that optimism is just asking to leave yourself as vulnerable to being blindsided by reality as a Wide-Eyed Idealist. Of course, pessimism is no solution either. Therefore, the middle path of realism with a slight tendency towards pessimism (again, see 70+ years of precedent) is the optimal path.
Seriously, though, what's with both Israeli Jewish and Palestinian Arab opposition to the idea of making Jerusalem a neutral city that neither side exclusively controls?
edited 6th Dec '17 5:39:14 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Galaxy News Radio
Well, its mostly to do with the preception of red lines.
I can't speak from the Muslim point of view obviously, Nor can I speak from the POV of a practicing jew (I'm an Atheist) but from the secular Israeli point of view its seen like this:
We've got our country finally after 2000 years of exile, but its not a stable existance - there's a world full of people who would seek to deny us our homeland if given the chance, And they will use whatever method they think works to accomplish this. Violence is one method - political pressure of different kinds is another.
Jerusalem is our holiest of places - That one thing which is viewed as mattering most. If you're willing to give up that which is MOST important - there's nothing you can't be made to give up with enough pressure.
Its a "if you give an inch they'll take a mile" line of thinking basically. Its a siege mentality of a sort.
edited 6th Dec '17 5:58:24 AM by bladeofdarkness
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
That's an interesting insight... but is also something that equally applies to the Muslims and Christians among the Palestinian Arabs (i.e. the vast majority if not entirety of them). The notion that Jerusalem is only holy to Jews is deeply offensive and probably grounds for being accused of religious discrimination or something similar.
PS: Whenever I say "Israeli Jews", I mean "Jew" in the ethnic/ethnoreligious sense, and thus include ethnic Jews who are not followers of Judaism.
edited 6th Dec '17 6:12:23 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
United Earth
Relevant. Start at 2:53 for the bit about Jerusalem specifically.
Galaxy News Radio
The thing is, the idea isn't to make it holy for ONLY Jews.
Even ignoring the moral aspects of it - no one in their right minds would shoot a golden egg laying goose like a city that is holy to all 3 monotheistic religions.
A Jerusalem under a fully internationally recognized Israeli rule would still be a city where all are free to practice as they wish and all holy places would be protected. the matter of recognizing it as Israel's capital is more a "State" issue, rather then a religious one.
Its more of a case of "It was OUR holy city before either of the other two religions were ever established - Ergo it should be under our control". Its definitely not a "Jews only city" concept.
Cant watch, at work.
edited 6th Dec '17 6:25:03 AM by bladeofdarkness
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Given the current positions and prior actions of the Israeli government I really doubt it won't quickly become a "Jews-only city."
Oh really when?
Galaxy News Radio
Jerusalem as a holy city for all 3 faiths is the ultimate tourist trap - you really think They'll give up on all them shekels ? ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Oh, bother.
Yeah, Netanyahu is a big part of the problem.
A procrastination in of itself
I learn long ago never to underestimate the racism induced stupidity of the current Israeli government.
Regardless of if it will happen or not, I don’t think the fear that it might is illegitimate.
To flip your point to a Palestinian perspective, a group first denied a state under the Ottamons, then the British, then the Egyptians and Jordanians before finally be given their own semi-state that is at constant risk of being banned by their very aggressive and paranoid neighbour.
Why should they give up their holiest of sites? Surrender that which they hold most dear.
If they give up Jeresulus they’re saying that the Israeli government can annex anything it likes, from their perspective it’s the same give an inch and they will take a mile situation, because they’re (I’d say rightly) afriad that the moment the Israeli government thinks it can get away with it the entire West Bank and Gaza will be annexed and the remaining Palestinians either made 2nd class citizens, forcibly expelled or being killed.
Your argument of historical oppression, fear of serious threats and an unwillingness to give up an inch due to fear that their opponents would use it as an opening to wipe them out, it’s perfectly legitimate, it just works just as well for the other guy.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Galaxy News Radio
In truth, I have no idea what to think of what the Palestinians think, really.
I don't actually think the idea of a two state solution as currently proposed will ever actually be realistic - not enough territory between Jordan and the sea for two nations, and Gaza and the West Bank are divided territorially anyway. And then there's the security issue which is a whole other mess... in short, I really don't see it happening.
A propsal that I've seen being kicked around for a while now talks about completely turning over the West bank to Israeli control, and giving the Palestinians a sizeable part of the Northarn Sinai attached to Gaza as a territory for the creation of a potential state.
Its batshit crazy - but it might end up being the direction things will go if anyone is serious about resolving this conflict. Egypt will obviously be financially compensated up the butt for the reliquished territory, and the relocated Palestinians would obviously be as well. If there's ever going to be a realistic "two state solution", it will probably take this form.
As insane as it may sound now, it's probably the more rational "peaceful" resolution to the conflict.
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
United Earth
From that perspective, I see no problem in recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of the one single State between Jordan and the sea: Israel.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
No, they don't. Not even close. The poll they seem to be referring to is this, where Palestinian support for the one-state "solution" was a mere 36%, and that's probably counting a lot of people who only support it as a mean to a very, very different end.
Galaxy News Radio
So they want to be Israeli citizens... And ?
You don't get to try and reframe the debate as a "civil rights matter" after your original claim of "national liberation struggle" has fallen apart.
If they really want civil rights, they are welcome to complain to the Jordanian goverment who revoked their Jordanian citizenship in 1988.
edited 6th Dec '17 7:38:30 AM by bladeofdarkness
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
United Earth
My mistake. It's a very interesting poll, though. I think we should discuss it in more detail.
One thing I find really notable is how disproportionately Israeli Arabs are in favour of a One-State solution and other solutions in that direction.
The Palestinians I'm talking about weren't born at that time, though, were they?
edited 6th Dec '17 7:40:56 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Hence, a worse time to lob idiot ideas like that one into the ring. And, seeing as that might well just start the overt war... It's pretty stupid.
edited 6th Dec '17 4:19:45 AM by Euodiachloris