Israel and Palestine

So, this is old news, but I only just found out. Remember this video where a guy walked "10 hours in Paris" and got constantly called out and threatened? He then went on to complain about the rise of antisemitism in France on international news media?

Note that we rely on the subtitles for often unintelligible words, and that the ten hours themselves are unavailable, only the one minute-ish digest.

A French journalist, working for the public channel France 2, attempts to replicate the experiment:

120 hours clocked, in Paris and other areas. No attacks, threats, or even derogatory comments. Mostly indifference. Occasionally, people would go out of their way to be friendly, from a simple "shalom" to explicitly commenting on how it's totally fine to be of whatever Religion, may I take a picture with you, and would you like to have some tea with us?

A cursory examination of Zvika Klein's background shows he's very likely to be doing propaganda to the advantage of Netanyahu, for the sake of scaring French Jews into moving to Israel.

edited 26th Apr '17 4:31:04 AM by TheHandle

When thousands of French Jews are making the exact same complaints, somehow I doubt it's just propoganda.

I can draw parallels to other groups of people complaining about behavior they've never experienced themselves but are predisposed to see based on propaganda and cultural expectations. Like feeling threatened by a Scary Black Man who's just walking by you just because he happens to be tall and black.

Either that or the French journalist must have had a very friendly and likable face? Or maybe he's lying? Or maybe the 120 hours of walking around are unrepresentative for some reason?

edited 26th Apr '17 5:28:02 AM by TheHandle

It's known that there's been a big spike in antisemitism in France lately. Largely because of Le Pen and the rise of the National Front over there.

I think the results of this kind of experiment, really depend on which streets do you walk in and how concealed is your camera...

As for bibi, i doubt he wants french Jews to move to israel since: 1. There is no guarantee they would vote for him and 2. There is already a big housing problem in israel, we don't need more people.

63% of French Jews said that they had been insulted at least once because of their Jewishness.

51% of French Jews report that they have "been threatened" because they are Jewish.

43% claim that they have been physically assaulted.

You think that all of those are just in their heads?

edited 26th Apr '17 5:41:10 AM by Cag

Please source your stats. Also, on one hand, being insulted "at least once" in their entire lives? That's a low bar. On the other hand, 43% of them assaulted for being Jewish? That seems like a lot. I want more details.

The French journalist apparently went to the very "worst" neighborhoods and housing projects, but I'm not familiar with the areas he visited and cannot confirm. Likewise for the concealment of the camera: while the image makes it seem like it was filmed from behind some kind of thin fabric, I lack the expertise to say one way or another.

And I thought Israel always wanted more (Jewish) people? Or are you saying yerida is no longer a derogatory word among Zionists?

edited 26th Apr '17 6:03:53 AM by TheHandle

I've taken the stats from this article, which claims to cite a survey by the French Institute of Public Opinion.

Officially, Israel want to be a home for the Jewish people, but in reality, large immigration waves are expensive business, since the state has to find them a place to live, teach them Hebrew and find them a place to work. Why would bibi want to go to all that trouble for people who could easily decide to support his political rivals?

I know this is just an anecdote, but I have family in France and when they visit, they often talk about this. None of them has outright suffered violence, but the service in some grocery stores, for example, appears to suddenly becomes a lot less friendly once people hear you're Jewish.

edited 26th Apr '17 9:52:14 AM by InsomniacWeasel

@The Handle: Still, self-reported statistics are probably more reliable than portraying a few days in the shoes of a Jewish person with a camera on. It might have been just a good day or people don't want to be assholes with someone filming. Especially, when it's not just a few cases here.

Doubting someone's claim of having been disturbed right away (whether it's sexual assault on a woman or racist comments on Jews) doesn't seem like a good principle to withhold and just smells of bias against that particular group.

edited 27th Apr '17 3:23:04 PM by Grafite

I'd say the same about doubting a person's claims of not having assaulted or insulted anyone nor ever intending to, or it not being a normal or acceptable thing in their own group. Unfortunately, in this context, prejudice can be "smelled" both ways, so how about we dispense with that sort of accusation unless there's more solid evidence than "smell"?

According to the Israeli CBS (link in Hebrew) there are 8.68 million people in Israel; 1.808 million (20.8%) of which are Arabs, 338,000 are "other" (4.5%) and the rest Jews.
Another interesting fact from the sheet is that the number of children a woman is expected (in average) to have has shrunk: from 3.6 (in 1955) to 3.1 for Jewish women and from 8(!) to 3.6 for Muslim women. It's mainly interesting because demographics are an argument for whether Israel should annex the WB or not.

For once with the hope not to begin any kind of discussion but merely to share an experience, I thought I'd post this very nice song by Idan Raichel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvbZ5zSZYSE

As you may know, this is the Israeli remembrance day for all the victims of Israel's wars (and as of the 2000's, terrorist events), making this a solemn occasion. Frankly, I'm not in the mood to defend or argue anything. Allow me a few hours of this silence to remember a couple of my friends. Whether or not you think they did for a justified cause, they aren't alive.

"Remembrance songs" are a somewhat unique Israeli tradition. They're written to express sorrow for and sometimes appreciation of the dead, not just at war. They are melancholy and personal. Often, they include a lot of natural imagery, tying into the symbolic connection of the dead returning to the earth and becoming one with the world ("return to the dirt whence you came"). Though idiosyncratic in a sense, because they draw from the songwriter's own experience of the death of a loved one, they have certain common musical characteristics. This one in particular is a beautiful one. Idan Raichel's music is quite inspirational, in my opinion. It draws a lot of musical and thematic elements from Ethiopian culture and combines them with Jewish and Israeli content to create an unusual combination (this isn't his song, but since his band was involved you can hear the influences).

Rough translation for the non-Hebrew speakers, so that you may appreciate this song with me:

River water flows. Behold:

These are the days of your life

Washing in a deluge that begins with the first rain.

River water flows. Behold:

These are the streams

that will reach a withered desert

With the silence that will come.

Even if I drank the sea,

my thirst will not be quenched

For another day besides you

For another day in your arms

Even set beneath the sun,

her rays will never burn me

As my heart burned in the fires of your love.

(edit: forgot to translate the third line, now translated)

edited 30th Apr '17 11:35:41 AM by InsomniacWeasel

Mourning is meet and right, mate. Always. You don't ever have to come near an apology. Nobody does.

And, remembrance songs should and must be sung. It's not just traditional for Israel, you know. But, the whole of Africa through the Mediterranean region and into Central Asia. I would keen along with you were I to hear the melody to harmonise with, and if it were acceptable.

It's one of the saddest things, really: everybody in your neck of the woods? Mourns in pretty much the same ways. To the same rhythms, too.

It's old. And, only when turned to mindless vengeance does it turn bad. For which there is many a cautionary tale. :/

edited 30th Apr '17 11:34:52 AM by Euodiachloris

At day's end people forget that the guy on the other side of the fence is also a person way too easily.

True. It goes both ways, and is one major reason why the more corrupt elements in each side's leadership are able to so easily fan the flames of blind hate and extremism against the other side.

Hamas has allied itself with North Korea: http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-thanks-n-korea-for-its-support-against-israeli-occupation/

I don't foresee this ending well for anyone involved.

Calling a "nice of you to say that" an alliance is a bit of an overstatement.

According to a PA TV host, Israel "is waging war against the Muslim world via "sex mania"."

... Huh?

A demographic race, maybe?

I have to admit, both sides ditching the bombs and knives (outside of certain very specific contexts) and devoting their energies to increasingly enthusiastic and inventive fucking as they try to outbreed each other would be a pleasant change of pace.

"Mr. President, we must not allow a dildo gap!"

It's still incredibly stupid though. Just look at the Quiverfull movement.

Are they not doing well?