Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
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A procrastination in of itself
Sadly it's probably the best way to egt peace. You get the rest of the world on the same page and then they can act untied to poke and prod both sides into either making their own deal or agreeing to the one they international community made.
It's been commented many times that both the Israeli and Palestinian leadership seem to regularly act like children, you what's being done is what you do when two children from different families fight, have the parents work out a deal because the kids are acting like idiots.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
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A procrastination in of itself
Hey you never know, after all, us Brits did a dam good job of unifying the Palestinians and Israelis, now sure it was in hatred of us, but you take what you can get. 
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This article is interesting, if a bit shallow.
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The problem with this analogy is that it assume the rest of the world are responsible adult. They are not.
Look at the Syrian civil war. First everyone ignored it because it wasn't really their problem and when it did become their problem they tried to find simple solutions that wouldn't solve the real issue but would stop the refugees from coming
edited 8th Jun '16 1:39:03 AM by nnokwoodeye1
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
Most of the world is united on the premise of a two-state solution. Nobody actually endorses the Israeli status quo, not even the US, and the only countries that swing the other way are the ones who still don't recognize Israel at all and are largely discredited on the issue for continuing to do so. If the international community is not only unified on the general concept of a two-state solution, but also what such a solution would actually look like, they can then lend legitimacy to a specific outcome and pressure any bilateral negotiations towards going that way.
A procrastination in of itself
It's a sliding scale, compared to the Israeli and Palestinian leadership the rest of the world are responsible adults. Plus us being unreasonable and irresponsible over Syria doesn't have to carry over to Israel-Palestine.
The dark Mage of the playground
The Israeli leadership is a 5 year old child, and the palestinian one is a 5 year old whose favourite snack is glue
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I'd amend that to "some of the world leadership", because there are some rather unhinged world leaders today.
A procrastination in of itself
Oh true, by "the rest of the world" I mean the Middle East Quartet, the Arab states that don't recognise Israel and fund Hamas aren't adults either, and that's before we get into the random nutballs of the world.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
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The dark Mage of the playground
Woooooo Carl Gustav rifle represent!
United Earth
As usual, avoid the comments section.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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Yep, it's Shmuck Bait aright.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
United Earth
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According to a Palestinian poll, over half of the Palestinians support armed Intifadha.
The law in the night
What about the other half?
Inter arma enim silent leges
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
I can see why, unfortunately. "Peace" has only made thing steadily worse for them and pushed the prospect of a two-state solution further away, although there is value in how the unfair peace is winning them support in the international community, which would evaporate immediately if they returned to violence.
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I assume they either said they don't support it or they don't know/are undecided.
The law in the night
Returning to violence would result in them losing whatever support they'd have in the Western nations, since it would nicely fit the narrative that maintaining peace is impossible because they want to exterminate every single Jewish person in the Middle East.
And going full out in armed militancy means the IDF can have a much higher leeway with using lethal force, which would result in even more dead Palestinians and it is a fight they have no hope to win anyway.
Making a fully armed intifada would be suicide for them.
Inter arma enim silent leges
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
You're assuming that they actually believe that there is support for their cause left. Genuine support, that is. A common belief among Arabs that I've seen both in the past and in the present is that Western support for the Palestinian cause is insincere, half-hearted, or even nonexistent (i.e. it's all a sham to placate the Arabs).
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
United Earth
Mind you, lots of Jews, in and out of Israel, feel the same about Western support for Israel.
So what does one call it? Like the Hostile Media Effect, but applied to alliances and supports? Siege Mentality?
I think the correct summary is that the West are on their own side, but don't want to see pictures of babies turned into smears of blood and be complicit in that. They're tolerant of kafkaesque daily suffering and tyranny. so long as they get good compensation for it or so long as intervening would be too much effort.
At any rates, non-Palestinian Arabs have no business talking of half-assed support and placating attitudes. Their support, their commitment to international justice of any sort, is worth less than shit, and they ought to be ashamed of their big self-righteous mouths.
edited 12th Jun '16 2:10:46 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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When it was still one kingdom, it was called "Israel".
Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.