Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
They've been untrained attackers for now it seems. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more bodies. On both sides.
edited 8th Oct '15 10:15:45 AM by TerminusEst
Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Why? It's not like lack of justification has stopped them.
Galaxy News Radio
there seems to be some confusion.
the stabbings don't come instead of the rock throwers, those are still in full swing. you just don't hear about it as much right now because attention is more directed towards the stabbing.
edited 8th Oct '15 10:53:30 AM by bladeofdarkness
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
United Earth
Let's not start making puns. The English language has far too many knife and blade related idioms, and quite a few stony ones too.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Galaxy News Radio
Oh my god.
I swear I just now noticed that I made a pun without meaning too ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Well, unintentional puns are not a rare occurrence. There's a reason why Accidental Innuendo is a thing, after all.
edited 8th Oct '15 12:19:25 PM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
I love puns. They add a certain edge to any conversation.
"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
United Earth
HE SAID JEHOVAH!
Thus speaks yoneld:
bladeofdarkness, you still have those cheese graters?
Galaxy News Radio
Small holes or big ones ?
The law in the night
Clashes at the Gaza border, live rounds fired
Maybe an escallation will make it more politically difficult for the Egyptian regime to continue to crack down on the border with Gaza. I don't know how fragile their position is domestically, or what the Egyptian man in the street thinks about the conflict.
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
The poorer they are, the more likely they are to be vehemently pro-Palestine. It's a bad disconnect between Arab leadership that does no more than pay lipservice to their plight, and the people who tend too far in the other direction (the "death to Israel" one).
So, there's likely to be pressure on them, but are they in a position where they need to yield to it?
Galaxy News Radio
Not really.
Gaza serves as an operations base for the jihadis who are making life difficult for Egypt in the Sinai.
Solving that problem as quickly as possible is an Egyptian interest - which trumps anyone else's.
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Evidence of Israeli plants inciting violence at Palestinian protests. Electronic Intifada link, so the usual biases apply, but the actual journalism is from Reuters - EI just compiled it into one easy-to-read article.
I read the same in a Norwegian newspaper, also citing Reuters.
United Earth
Isn't this known to pretty much SOP for the Mista'arvim units?
Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Galaxy News Radio
Oh, you mean the "Mistaaravim" infiltrator units.
yeah, they've been around since forever. they're as much part of Israeli riot control tactics as tear gas. but they aren't there to "incite" violence, they're there to suppress it.
they infiltrate violent groups of rioters AFTER the riot is already in progress. find the main instigator, then apprehend them and drag them off to be arrested.
Edit: beat me to it.
edited 10th Oct '15 4:13:19 AM by bladeofdarkness
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
The journalists on the scene say they were the ones escalating the protest.
A procrastination in of itself
Well if there's no riot then they're out of a job aren't they?
Sounds like the same shit British cops pulled when they infiltrated environmentalist groups then pushed them to carry out vandalism.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Sounds like your own government is feeding you and your compatriots lies on this one. Just like mine does to me and my people, incidentally; I just learned to recognize when they're clearly bullshitting me, or at least be suspicious of everything they say until it's proven to be true.
The stabbings also make the IDF and settler violent responses a lot more justified, so the Palestinians going full Sicarii on the Israelis is a double edged decision.
Inter arma enim silent leges