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Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.

At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.

So, let's start off:

At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.

The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".

Key issues of the talks:

  • Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.

  • Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

  • Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.

So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.

Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:

edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#9101: Sep 30th 2015 at 11:46:02 AM

Will the respective parties return their nobel peace prizes then?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#9102: Sep 30th 2015 at 11:48:11 AM

<blink blink> Which Israelis and Palestinians got Nobel prizes for the Oslo Accords?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#9103: Sep 30th 2015 at 11:49:54 AM

Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, and PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#9104: Sep 30th 2015 at 11:53:00 AM

[up] Shimon Peres is the only one alive. Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated and Yasser Arafat died about ten years ago.

Keep Rolling On
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#9105: Sep 30th 2015 at 11:53:53 AM

I knew Yasser was dead. But that is still no excuse.

Ever heard of zombies?

Gosh.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
bladeofdarkness Galaxy News Radio from israel Since: Jan, 2001
Galaxy News Radio
#9106: Sep 30th 2015 at 12:34:12 PM

Of course he's heard about Zombies.

he mentioned Shimon Peres, didn't he.

Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#9107: Sep 30th 2015 at 1:48:08 PM

Yeah, and the inscription on the Noble prize of peace for the people involved will be:

Thanks for trying!

edited 30th Sep '15 1:48:33 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#9108: Sep 30th 2015 at 3:06:51 PM

Basically acknowledging reality, since Netanyahu's been caught bragging about how he's pissing on Oslo. Now we can shred the illusion and move into a new epoch.

Things definitely look dark for Palestinians on the ground, but a wellspring of international opinion is going their way. If they can keep it clean, the next decade could see real progress.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#9109: Sep 30th 2015 at 3:16:22 PM

The flag of Palestine raised today at the U.N headquarters in New York

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Kzickas Since: Apr, 2009
#9110: Oct 1st 2015 at 1:13:09 AM

Things definitely look dark for Palestinians on the ground, but a wellspring of international opinion is going their way. If they can keep it clean, the next decade could see real progress.

Israeli leadership definitely knows that there's a limit on how much the Palestinians can bleed before Israel drowns in it. Unless Israel gets a government that's completely out of touch with reality I don't think conditions in Palestine will get a lot worse.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#9111: Oct 1st 2015 at 10:39:07 AM

But the Israeli government sees their main political threat as coming from people who think the Palestinians aren't bleeding enough, so it's a balancing act.

bladeofdarkness Galaxy News Radio from israel Since: Jan, 2001
Galaxy News Radio
#9112: Oct 1st 2015 at 12:29:13 PM

Parents murdered in West Bank terror attack.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4706203,00.html

Drive by shooting in the west bank against an Israeli car. the two parents were critically injured in front of their 4 children, and eventually died from their wounds. the children, fortunately were physically unharmed.

A Hamas spokesman praised the attack by the "brave resistance," calling the act "heroic," and promising to continue the struggle against Israel.

Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#9113: Oct 1st 2015 at 12:30:52 PM

That's helpful.

No, wait.

What is the opposite of helpful?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#9114: Oct 1st 2015 at 12:32:24 PM

Unhelpful.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#9115: Oct 1st 2015 at 12:35:13 PM

Dammit, why do people do things this this?(note, the question is rhetorical, I know why).

I hope they catch the guys responsible, also Hamas are assholes as always, fuck them.

edited 1st Oct '15 12:35:27 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#9116: Oct 1st 2015 at 12:47:50 PM

Shameful display. sad

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#9117: Oct 1st 2015 at 1:29:08 PM

4 future Israeli Batmen.

I am a horrible, horrible person for saying that.

I just hope the Orthodox groups don't try to retaliate and start another cycle of hurting.

Inter arma enim silent leges
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#9118: Oct 1st 2015 at 2:49:23 PM

It's not the haredim you need to worry about.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#9119: Oct 1st 2015 at 5:46:30 PM

What were the actual principles of the Oslo accords, and how did Israel violate them?

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#9120: Oct 1st 2015 at 6:14:42 PM

Well under Oslo Israel was meant to slowly withdraw from the West Bank entirely and hand over control to the elected Palestinian Legistlative Council, something that obviously never happened. Israel has effectively annexed most of the West Bank, having civilian and military control over the vast majority of it.

It didn't help that on top of that Israel heavily restricted the movement and freedom of PLC members, and that the PA never actually transferred its temporary powers to the PLC.

However the basic problem with Oslo was that it was a purely temporary measure, it was meant to last for 5 years while an actual peace deal was worked out, this never happened so everything went to shit.

edited 1st Oct '15 6:15:50 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#9121: Oct 2nd 2015 at 7:19:23 AM

Bibi has slammed the Iranian nuclear deal in a speech to the UN

UNITED NATIONS—Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Thursday delivered a fiery address here condemning the Iranian nuclear deal, largely unbowed in his opposition despite losing steep political ground to President Barack Obama over the issue this year.

In his speech to the General Assembly, Mr. Netanyahu thundered that Iranian threats to destroy Israel have been met in the world body by “utter silence, deafening silence.”

He then stopped speaking for 45 seconds, panning the hall with a furrowed glare.

“Perhaps you can now understand why Israel is not joining you in celebrating this deal,” he said.

The nuclear deal, reached in July between Iran and six world powers including the U.S., passed a crucial milestone when the U.S. Congress failed to adopt a resolution of disapproval that essentially could have blocked the deal from moving forward.

Mr. Netanyahu had thrown his support behind congressional opponents of the deal, delivering a controversial speech to Congress in March and meeting repeatedly with U.S. lawmakers.

After Mr. Netanyahu’s political loss, the White House sees him as wielding less influence over the president’s agenda.

Inside the White House, officials have come to expect forceful rhetoric from Mr. Netanyahu, especially at a high-profile platform such as the U.N.

While the Israeli leader’s public denunciations have long irked Mr. Obama’s advisers, the president’s political victory on the Iran deal has blunted the impact of Mr. Netanyahu’s criticism.

“The president is proud of the strong relationship between our two countries, and the unshakable bond when it comes to our commitment to Israel’s security,” White House press secretary Josh Earnest said on Thursday, when asked about the address.

Although as critical as ever, Mr. Netanyahu appeared to be careful in the address to maintain his ties with the U.S., something Israeli voters value.

His acknowledgment that the deal constrains Iran’s program, even if only for 10 to 15 years, indicates his desire to “change the channel” on the adversarial nature of his relationship with Mr. Obama, said Aaron David Miller, a former Middle East negotiator now at the Wilson Center.

“I suspect the psychological adjustment means that he’s accepted the fact that, if this was a win-lose situation, the president has won,” said Mr. Miller. “He is now forced to acquiesce in the implementation of the accord.”

Tamara Cofman Wittes, a former State Department official in the Obama administration now at the Brookings Institution, said despite tough words about the Iran deal, Mr. Netanyahu emphasized common ground with Mr. Obama in addressing Iran’s destabilizing behavior and enforcing the deal. This acceptance could help move efforts to boost security ties forward, she said.

“There are a number of agenda items for the U.S. and Israel that were kind of on hold because Netanyahu was so invested in all out opposition to the nuclear deal,” Ms. Wittes said.

As part of the White House effort to reduce tensions, administration officials have intensified outreach to American Jewish leaders and groups supportive of Israel, and Mr. Obama plans to meet with Mr. Netanyahu in Washington in October.

A senior administration official on Thursday said the White House hopes the meeting will close the chapter on several years of toxic relations between the two leaders.

Still, Mr. Netanyahu’s supporters don’t see the debate over the nuclear agreement as over. U.S. lawmakers are drafting new legislation to target Iran’s support for international militant groups and to limit the ability of foreign companies to invest in Iran.

Much of the congressional debate over Iran is focused on trying to dry up funding for Iran’s elite military unit, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, which dominates the Iranian economy.

Israeli officials and many Iran watchers in Washington say they believe there is a high likelihood that Iran will cheat on the nuclear agreement, and that the West must be prepared to move quickly with punishments if it does.

“The next phase is not just enforcing the nuclear accord, strictly, but putting in place new mechanisms to guard against the cancer of Iran spreading across the region,” said Josh Block, president of The Israeli Project, which campaigned against the nuclear deal.

Arab officials also have sharply criticized Iran during the General Assembly, including diplomats from Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Saudi Arabia’s foreign minister, Adel al-Jubeir, publicly campaigned against Russian involvement in Syria, in part, because Moscow is now aligned with Tehran.

“Iran is an occupying force in Syria,” Mr. al-Jubeir said on Tuesday.

The agreement between Iran and the six world powers—the U.S., U.K., Germany, France, China, and Russia—will gradually lift U.N. and U.S. sanctions on Iran in return for stringent controls on Iran’s nuclear program to keep it from developing a nuclear weapon.

Mr. Netanyahu took issue with Obama administration arguments that the deal will prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons and vowed to take action if necessary.

“I know that preventing Iran from developing nuclear weapons remains the official policy of the international community,” he said in his address. “But no one should question Israel’s determination to defend itself against those who seek our destruction.”

With eventual sanctions relief, Iran will increase its war chest to supply militant groups in the region, Mr. Netanyahu said. Mr. Obama has acknowledged that this could be a drawback of the deal, but said it was an unfortunate consequence of getting Iran to place those constraints on its program.

Mr. Netanyahu said differences with Mr. Obama were “within the family,” praising the U.S. as Israel’s most steadfast ally.

The prime minister’s speech didn’t sway his critics in Israel who have often heard him playing up the Iran threat, said Yehudit Auerbach, a political scientist at the Tel Aviv-based Bar Ilan University.

“Bibi haters won’t become Bibi lovers,” she said.

Ms. Auerbach said that while the nuclear deal had ushered in a new status quo for countries in Europe and the Middle East that were trying to build commercial and economic ties with Iran, Mr. Netanyahu wasn’t backing off efforts to frame Iran as a danger to Israel and the world.

“Bibi says ‘beware,’ but I don’t think people will listen,” she added. “The deal is done.”

—Felicia Schwartz at the United Nations and Rory Jones in Jerusalem contributed to this article.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#9122: Oct 2nd 2015 at 8:36:15 AM

You know I would be a horrible representative because I would have snored in that 45 second interval.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#9123: Oct 2nd 2015 at 9:19:17 AM

I probably would have started singing in order to disrupt the moment of silence they had for Kim Jong Ill. We should totally do that the next time a despot we don't like gets one of those.

edited 2nd Oct '15 9:19:35 AM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#9124: Oct 2nd 2015 at 11:29:23 AM

[up]The traditional (and, on camera, more useful) method is to simply walk out while they are talking and be very obvious about it.

I'd have done that if I had been there when Bibi tried that. Regardless of what he was talking about, since that level of condescension doesn't brook with me.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#9125: Oct 2nd 2015 at 5:07:44 PM

[up] But it's so much more fun to troll the Norks.tongue

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.

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