Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Right: it's peaceful and it's coexistence, they're not killing them or forcing them to leave. It's just terribly unjust and oppressive.
But this is the status quo (at least in the West Bank). The question is how to advance from here.
Four Israelis have been wounded in a shooting in the West Bank.
The Israeli Navy has stopped a flotilla of 4 boats from reaching Gaza.
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiotExplosive device discovered near Israeli Embassy in Uruguay Improvised bomb subsequently dismantled by Montevideo security forces. That was back in June 17th. It turns out, a civil servant from the Israeli embassy was arrested this Friday as the prime suspect for the attempted bombing, based on evidence from the CCTV cameras.
An attempted False Flag Operation? What the fuck?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.Might not be an attempt at a False Flag, could just be a very disgruntled employee.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranThat would take it from darkly appalling to darkly hilarious."I NEVER FELT APPRECIATED IN THIS DEPARTMENT! YOU PEOPLE SHUNTED ME FROM ONE COUNTRY TO ANOTHER, UPROOTING MY FAMILY EVERY TIME, AND FOR SHIT PAY! MY DAUGHTER HATED ME SO MUCH--" "She marry a Goy?" "WORSE! SHE MARRIED A MUSICIAN! AND MY WIFE, MY WIFE DOESN'T EVEN TALK TO ME ANY MORE! I HAVE NO FRIENDS, NO LIFE TO SPEAK OF! GAVE IT ALL FOR MY COUNTRY! AND NOW... NOW YOU DO THIS TO ME? YOU THROW ME UNDER THE BUS?! I'LL SHOW YOU, I'LL SHOW YOU ALL!"
edited 4th Jul '15 12:00:58 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.The Israeli diplomatic service is kind annoyed with its political overlords, they went on strike last year I think.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranYeah, that's what i was going to say. Israeli ambassadors are suffering under bad working conditions, apparently. So it could be a protest bombing, and the perpetrator figured if he succeeded then Hezbollah would get blamed.
What's the point of a protest bombing that you can't revindicate? That's not protesting, that's lashing out, no, not even that, it's petty, sneaky revenge, possibly misaimed. It's like that stoning scene in Life Of Brian, "WHO THREW THAT?!"
edited 4th Jul '15 1:00:55 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."Colonists and conquerors often use this argument: you are not a Kingdom/Principality/Nation of your own. You do not form a unified political entity. Therefore, you don't exist, you are nobody, a non-factor. You don't exist, you are nothing."
As someone who talk with a white nacionalist he said exacly this things when I told about native american genocide or the south africa apartheid, that since neither of them have of owing land, therefore it dosent belong to them, them he acused me of being a native apologist...yeah.
Also for What I saw, Israel and Hamas dosent want to much end the conflict in peace, they want the other side to surrender, to back down and acept whatever punishment they want, anything else will be feel as a karma houdini for one side or the other.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Maybe he would have claimed credit, or claimed anonymously, hell if it caused a scare he could have been sent home as a "non-essential" staff member. Just getting to go home might have been his aim.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranWell, maybe if they get their heads out of the places where the sun don't shine, they could get enough self-awareness to accept their own karma houdinity and make it a mutual deal. It really is a matter of mindset and perspective, isn't it?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.Yeah in the end some karma houdinis may well be the price of peace. A lot of people got away with stuff they shouldn't have after the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland, but we got peace (kinda).
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranA non-lethal attack actually could have been his aim; create a plausible bomb threat, which if it's against an Israeli embassy would have any number of suspects before thinking it was an inside job, and then the Israeli government moves to coddle the diplomats in order to protect them more.
The Game-changer that changed absolutely nothing: BDS
When I saw that Ben White was the author I was already sure it would be filled with rhetoric instead of showing how the BDS harmed the Israeli economy, which it hardly did.
Inter arma enim silent legesCrossposting from the US politics thread: Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard, who was jailed for 30 years (out of a life sentence) for espionage, is set to be paroled in November. He won't be immediately released to Israel (he was granted citizenship was while he was in prison) but will have to remain in the US for 5 years.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33696718
A lot of people within the US intelligence community really wanted Pollard to die in prison, so I have to wonder what the Israeli government finally offered to get him out.
edited 28th Jul '15 11:50:13 AM by Rationalinsanity
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.Nothing. The general feeling in Israel is that the US is trying to buy Israel acceptance of the agreement with Iran. The Americans of course deny this and claim he was always supposed to be released this year.
I'm beginning to really like the stuff on Haaretz since I registered a free account this week - for instance, they did a massively in-depth article on why there are so many Hebrew phrases for "penis" which I posted about here.
Hundreds of young settlers clash violently with police at Beit El
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A violent clash between hundreds of young West Bank settlers and Israeli police broke out Tuesday evening at the settlement Beit El, where settlers are trying to stop the army from demolishing two illegally-constructed buildings.
The violence began when the youths tried to stop a police vehicle from bringing in a security fence to be set up around the buildings. Police sought to drive off the settlers, who were being led at the time by Likud MK Oren Hazan, and a violent clash ensued. Two youths were arrested.
At the same time, the state has filed its response to the appeal filed by the buildings' contractor, who sought to cancel their demolition. The state agreed with the appeal, writing that there was a basic change in the planning situation which justified the reversal of the court's ruling which required the buildings' demolition.
Last year, the Supreme Court ordered the two buildings, containing about 24 apartments, demolished by the end of July, following a petition by the Palestinian landowners and the Yesh Din group. But the Civil Administration, acting on the defense minister's orders, has launched an accelerated process of promoting a building plan and giving a retroactive construction permit last month, after which the contractor would be able to appeal the Supreme Court to rescind the demolition orders.
Before the clashes erupted on Tuesday, Education Minister Naftali Bennett became the latest right-wing politician to make a solidarity visit to the site, where he blamed his rival, Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon, for the crisis.
Referring to the army's dispatch of troops to the area Monday night in preparation for the demolition, which are to take place by Thursday, Bennett, head of the Habayit Hayehudi party, said: "Last night a hasty, provocative, extreme act was taken by a senior member of the government, which flies in the face of responsible, statesmanlike behavior that I expect from this government. We will not lend a hand to this."
Clashes had broken out in the morning between police and the the 300 settlers the site; dozens were arrested and soon released. Meanwhile, some 200 settlers rallied at the ruins of the West Bank settlement Sa-Nur, which was destroyed 10 years ago, along with three other West Bank settlements and all 21 in the Gaza Strip, during the "disengagement."
At Beit El, Bennett continued, "I want to say state it clearly: Ten years after the disengagement [from Gaza and four West Bank settlements], to the day, and we are here so that things will look different, and they will look different this time. The answer to Palestinian terror is settlement, not cowardice."
Following their visits to the site, Ministers Uri Ariel, Ze'ev Elkin and Yariv Levin released a joint statement: "We came here to express our support for the residents of Beit El, their desire to build up their community, and their protest against the unnecessary demolition. We demand the start to construction on 300 housing units that was promised four years ago, and determined action to approve the Dreinoff buildings [the two slated for demolition]. We call on the defense minister to immediately cancel the 'closed miltary zone' order in Beit El and remove the special police forces from the community at once. At the same time we call on the settlers not to harm the security forces in any way.
"We also support the goal of the residents of Sa-Nur and northern Samaria to return to their communities, which lie in territory under complete Israeli control," the ministers' statement said. "Today, on the 10th anniversary of the expulsion, there is a broad consensus in Israeli society and the political system that the disengagement was a terrible mistake and that the time has come to correct it."
Man, like, all of those people need to be in jail, not in government.
So basically several civilian officials are directly rebelling against an established directive by the military and central government, am I correct?
______
On the topic of tourism:
107 million Chinese globetrotters, but a mere 18,700 make it to Israel
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The Chinese have a long-standing love affair with the Dead Sea. They learn about the lowest spot on Earth in school, for example, and when the Dead Sea was mooted as a candidate in a 2011 contest for one of the new seven wonders of the world – China chalked up the largest number of votes in favor of Israel’s saltiest sea. The Chinese have even undertaken to create an artificial Dead Sea in Sichuan province, to simulate the real one.
One would have hoped that this would have been enough to make Israel a prime destination for Chinese tourists, but it hasn’t.
“To say that not much has been done to bring Chinese tourists to Israel is not true. It would be more correct to say that almost nothing has been done” – that comment comes from Israel’s new tourism minister, Yariv Levin, who has been in office since May.
The data show that there is some truth to what he says. Over the past three years, there has in fact been a major increase in Chinese tourism in the Holy Land, but the numbers are still small. Last year, about 32,000 Chinese came here, up 29% from 2013. The upward trend is continuing this year. During the first five months of 2015, Israel has welcomed 18,700 Chinese tourists, a 35% increase over the same period in 2014.
When you look at the bigger picture, however, you see that this is a drop in the ocean. The Chinese represent one of the largest populations of foreign travelers around the world. Last year, 107 million of them went abroad, a 19.5% increase over 2013. Although most head to destinations in the Far East, about 20 million venture further afield.
Lack of flights
The first obstacle to growth in Chinese tourism in Israel is a lack of direct flights here. China has a number of international airports but the only direct route between that country and Israel is El Al Airlines’ route to Beijing. Under such circumstances, the supply of seats is limited and prices are not competitive. About six months ago, it was announced that China’s fourth-largest carrier, Hainan Airlines, was expected to begin three flights a week in September, on the days on which El Al doesn’t fly the route. The inauguration of that service has now been deferred to November, for reasons that Tourism Ministry sources decline to disclose.
For his part, Tourism Minister Levin says that the delay is the result of bureaucratic difficulties related to the terms the Chinese carrier received.
“Around the world it is acceptable to provide benefits such as an exemption from certain fees to a carrier that is beginning service along a certain route, but in Israel, we are not prepared for this,” Levins explains. “We are due to meet with Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz to expedite the matter, and are also working with the Israeli ambassador in China, Matan Vilnai, to resolve the issue.”
If this is indeed the reason for the delay, however, negotiations are likely to reach a dead end, as government sources have told The Marker that Israel simply does not provide such benefits. Airlines that fly here do so based on commercial considerations and they configure their operations here accordingly, the sources said.
Since the number of Chinese traveling abroad is rising quickly, many countries are courting them. These are typically tourists who stay for a relatively long period of time since they are traveling major distances. Moreover, the amount of money a Chinese tourist spends is also relatively high, so the potential posed by these visitors is great.
Ambassador Vilnai says the goal for the coming years is to bring 100,000 Chinese tourists a year to Israel, but that appears to be a distant dream unless significant changes are made.
Beyond the number of flights from China, Israel’s visa requirements for Chinese nationals are also a major issue. Minister Levin acknowledged that rather than applying for a visa to Israel, the tendency of many tourists is simply to go elsewhere; in any case, he says, demanding visas from organized tour groups is totally unnecessary. Calls to eliminate the visa for Chinese visitors have become a “legacy,” handed down from one tourism minister to the next, but so far there has been no breakthrough.
A meeting has been scheduled this month to discuss the subject, and is to include Interior Minster Silvan Shalom and representatives of the foreign and justice ministries, but expectations are not high.
Food and other factors
Once Chinese tourists do arrive here, they have certain special preferences, says Ilan Maor, vice president of the Israel-China Chamber of Commerce. They would happily enjoy one authentic Israeli meal, he notes, but would prefer to eat at Chinese restaurants. And they discover that authentic Chinese cuisine is hard to come by here.
“They want everything to be in Chinese,” Maor says. “As Israelis, when we visit Paris, we have no expectations that anything will be in Hebrew, but the Chinese person thinks: ‘I represent a global tourism power, so I have it coming to me.’
“The British have already announced that in some of the places frequented by [Chinese] tourists, they will install signs in Chinese. In addition, most of the major hotels around the world have someone who speaks Chinese, and their websites and brochures are also written in Chinese. Of course, tourists who come here need a tour guide who speaks their language.”
Some hotels that have experience with Chinese guests have understood that they need to make changes to accommodate these visitors, particularly when it comes to breakfast. Even though the typical Israeli hotel breakfast provides a plethora of varied offerings, the Chinese have their own preferences.
“We have even sent cooks to specialize in preparing Asian breakfasts, which include rice, dumplings, congee porridge and other foods,” explains Shai Asia, executive vice president of Crowne Plaza Israel hotels.
“We also put the tea bags they like in their rooms,” he adds, along with noodles they can prepare by themselves in their rooms by adding hot water.
Crowne Plaza hotels are currently implementing a scheme aimed at providing services geared to the Chinese visitor that includes not only a special breakfast but Chinese-speaking staff and the option for the guests to pay with China’s Union Pay credit card.
Shai Doitsh, the marketing and sales manager for Arcadia hotels, says his chain is also trying to accommodate the culinary preferences of its Chinese visitors.
“Before they arrive, we contact the group and check their particular meal preferences,” he says, adding that at dinner, the hotels include rice and Asian dishes. At Prima hotels, they serve rice at breakfast along with rice cereal and various kinds of fish.
If Israel is hoping to welcome 100,000 Chinese tourists a year, it will need a network of Chinese-speaking guides, as these visitors would naturally expect. The problem is that Chinese is hardly a popular language in Israel and apparently, there are only about 35 tour guides who speak it. Accommodating 100,000 Chinese tourists would require about 100 such guides. To that end, about a year ago the Tourism Ministry opened a course in Chinese for tour guides, with about 30 participants. The course also teaches participants about Chinese culture and customs.
‘Israel isn’t on the map’
Marketing of Israel is another area that will require attention if 100,000 Chinese visitors are to be brought here. The Israel Government Tourist Office in China is expected to add an emissary from Israel to step up marketing efforts and the office is also due to open a Shanghai branch. The Israeli tourism bureau in China currently has a budget of just a few million shekels, which doesn’t permit massive promotion of Israel.
But if the budget is not boosted, the numbers of arrivals from China cannot be expected to reach the goal that Israel has set for itself. “Israel isn’t on the map for the Chinese tourist,” Maor says. “He doesn’t see us advertising. They may come here perhaps on business, but not for vacation. It doesn’t occur to them.”
One of the efforts currently coming together to market Israel in China includes collaboration with other countries that the Chinese tourist may consider visiting. The possibility of offering a package with travel agents from Italy is currently being looked into, making the trip to Israel more attractive. Italy is less than four hours from Israel by plane, which from the standpoint of the Chinese is a short hop.
Israeli travel agents add that Chinese tourists are less sensitive to the security situation in Israel. Unlike Europeans, they generally come on short notice, and usually in a group that reserves five to ten rooms at a hotel.
“We are trying to bring Chinese tourists to a tourist destination that suits them. The potential is already here. The Dead Sea, history, amazing archaeology, impressive geographic diversity, an English-speaking population, a high-tech background that excites them, so we have a wonderful foundation,” says Maor.
And here’s a little but important tip for hotels: If the Chinese staying at whatever hotel are satisfied, their friends and relatives will come. That’s how it works. Chinese tourists rely tremendously on recommendations from friends. That’s how they decide where to go, and it’s not just the advice of close friends.
“The Chinese go onto the websites of hotels and interesting destinations and thoroughly read reviews. They are crazy about searching the Web,” says Maor, who describes the avid writing and reading of such reviews. “They don’t necessarily go on Trip Advisor, because they have opinion sites of their own, but the idea is clear. A hotel that conducts itself particularly well for a tourist, will gain a huge advantage in this market,” he says. “On the other hand, if they mess up, everyone will know about it.”
I find that little tidbit about the Chinese tourists' insistence on remaining "Chinese" and eating Chinese food for the duration of their trips in foreign exotic countries rather narrow-minded and arrogant if you'd ask me. It's as if they believe that the non-Chinese world revolves around them and should cater to them - which technically is true From a Certain Point of View considering that the the Mandarin name of "China" (zhong-guo) literally translate to "Central Country/Middle Kingdom".
I'm Chinese-American by the way, so what I just said shouldn't be considered racially charged.
edited 28th Jul '15 4:24:21 PM by FluffyMcChicken
I think it's rebellion against the courts more then anything, thought he military seem to actually listen to the courts.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranSo it's like anything Obama does and the reaction of the Republican states right?
Impeach the tyrant! Wait...
'Israel isn't on the map.'
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.Not for the first time, either.
Keep Rolling On
More like peaceful oppression. Or, as French Algeria called it, pacification.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.