Israel and Palestine

Seems like you're confusing 'Nation' and 'State'. We're getting off-topic, and we could go very, very far. I'm pretty confident that I can establish my view as entirely sane and viable, and, just as importantly, I am rather passionate and eager about doing so and maybe even getting more folks to agree with me, but it would take a debate with a lot of range and a lot of depth, and this is not the place for it.

@ Handle, do you have a source saying the IDF assassinates members of Fatah/the Palestinian authority. In regards to Hamas defeating Fatah and taking over the West Bank, yeah that will not be a good thing.

x6

I don't mind.

Would Israel allow it?

I never said anything like that... by "getting Fatah out of the picture" I meant that and nothing else; disable them as a power. They have a horrible record of corruption and their legitimacy is quite dubious. Hamas are a little better. If Hamas is stuck having to govern everything, I expect that they'll find themselves forced to shift towards 'moderation', but I trust them not to let the process of colonization of the West Bank continue like their predecessors did.

I said nothing about murthar. Murthar is bad. Don't assassinate someone when you can possibly outmaneuver or disable them. Elimination is best when it's social rather than physical.

Of course, it is a lot more painful to be ostracized, disgraced, and ruined, than to die. Or at least people used to think so for most of human history...

Never mind me, I'm feeling philosophical today, for some reason...

edited 28th Apr '15 1:24:57 PM by TheHandle

@Jack: The PA is Israel's (occasionally) funded representative organisation in the West Bank, the guys it assigns to govern on its behalf. As a result, there's little reason to disappear its members. There was the recent death of Ziad Abu Ein, but that appeared to be the result of police brutality at a protest rather than anything pre-planned.

What? I thought it was the Palestinians' funded representative organization everywhere? Founded as a proto-state/pseudo-state/self-governing-thingie until the Israeli let the Palestinians get an actual state of their own?

Have I been completely mistaken on what the PA was all along?

If the PA works for Israel, how can it become a member of the ICC?

I think he's referring to the fact that the Palestinian Authority's taxes are collected by the Israeli government (IINM it's because they cannot collect it themselves under the current conditions), and thus it's at the mercy of said government if they ever decide to stop transferring those taxes to them (as it has done several times already, the latest being for the whole ICC thing).

Iaculus, Israel's representative organisation in the West Bank, inasmuch it has one, is COGAT.

... Having someone have control over your money, your water, your electricity, your travels, your construction materials, your...

... most of your existence...

...

...

... anyway, that's not the same as working for them or being owned by them.

Not any more than workers at a company t—sorry, serfs in a fiefdom belong to the local gentry.

... This topic pisses me off. I'll be taking a break for the night.

Sorry Handle, I confused you with Lacolus, as for the question of if Israel assassinates members of the PA I was referring to this quote. "ever-present threat of assassination by the IDF"

Yeah, that's mostly the case for Hamas. Fatah are much less at risk (from the IDF, anyway - neither Hamas nor the Gazan public have forgotten 2007), but it's something of a moot point because no way are they sticking their dicks in that blender.

So there are reports Israel is evacuating Israeli surrogate babies from Nepal...but not the mothers who bore them. Seems like a simple faux pas though.

edited 29th Apr '15 7:26:52 AM by FFShinra

Reports from where. When it comes to Israel most of the International Press,at least where I stand, tends to believe anything bad said about them. The US press has the opposite problem,though not to the extent everyone seems to think.

Hit a paywall on the Haaretz site, so here's a report by the Times of Israel.

edited 29th Apr '15 8:58:23 AM by Krieger22

Which says the exact opposite of what Shinra said.

Twas Time Magazine.

Found a link I'm inclined to believe that at the very least Time believes it is true, they seem like to much of a respectable magazine to print a bold faced lie.

It's a weird double standard but also one that makes a depressing level of sense. Governments are responsible for their own people, their citizens and nobody else's. This is simply the horrifying application of that, the babies are connected to the state of Israel and as such the responsibility of the government, the mothers are not connected to the state and as such are purely the responsibility of their own goverment.

I don't know who the process works but presumably the babies would possess some form of Israeli citizenship as part of how things go. That means that this is simply what always happens and what every national government does, it's a national government getting its citizens to safety as a higher priority than the citizens of the country where the disaster is happening.

Thats why I said it was more of a faux pas than anything else.

It baffled me how the article implies how horrible the Israelis were for leaving those poor mothers behind in Nepal.

The Surrogate mothers were under a contract to deliver the babies to their Israeli parents, not become Israeli citizens to do so.

It gets tiring when you see any articles involving Israel and they twist everything to make them look EVILZ!

They did send help along other neighbours and nations but they going to retrieve their future citizens got the spot light.

Yet few countries are just as scrutinized as Israel is in the foreign media. American media can be nasty on the perceived enemies like Russia and Iran, but I don't read many US news websites besides Reuters and the occasional CNN clickbait.

Personally while I support Israel as a whole I'm very unsatisfied with Benjamin and the Likud actions, not that I don't think that Hamas is free of guilt with their leadership are living in six star hotels in Qatar but calling for actions that will result in more dead Gazans.

edited 29th Apr '15 12:24:24 PM by AngelusNox

Yet you have no problem doing the same thing to other countries.

Israel isn't being evil here, but this is a bit of an unforced error in terms of diplomacy. When other countries are trying to help the Nepalese, and they only help themselves, thats pretty dickish. Doing both at once is not an impossible thing after all. It's not a Friend Or Idol decision after all, in which case it does make sense to only take care of the babies.

edited 29th Apr '15 12:09:43 PM by FFShinra

The Israelis have dispatched a rescue team and humanitarian and medical aid as well, for what it's worth.

I'm not sure if I want to know what happens if they run into the Malaysian rescue team when off duty.

Well there we go then.

Any news on the coalition building?

Last thing I read on Ynet is that Kulanu and UTJ are already in and Jewish Home, Shas and Yisrael Beitenu are still arguing with Bibi and each other.

Geez they are still going at it?