Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Shameful Display
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Who do you mean by us?
us is israel. US is america
edited 29th Mar '15 10:22:26 AM by nnokwoodeye1
A procrastination in of itself
X3 I think it's not about militarily weakening Israel but politically, with it now being more open that Israel has nukes the Israeli government looks even more like a jumped up hypocrite for throwing the fits it does over Iran maybe possible wanting nukes.
Yea, but it screws over everyone else in the ME, especially since nobody else here wants to see a nuclear Iran either.
United Earth
Nah, it's mostly the Saudi and their Gulfer friends.
edited 29th Mar '15 12:40:47 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
A procrastination in of itself
Sure nobody wants to see a nuclear Iran, but the rest of the ME is willing to bring that about diplomatically, while the Israeli government seems intent on sabotaging any diplomatic solution.
The Saudis have been willing to work with the US on a diplomatic solution, they don't trust the deal but they're more willing to give it a try than the Israeli government is.
edited 29th Mar '15 12:42:25 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
United Earth
I notice a potentiol misundestanding. By "Nuclear Iran" I mean "an Iran with nuclear energy", not "an Iran with nuclear weaponry". Is the latter the definition that most people mean?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
A procrastination in of itself
Yes, nobody gives a toss about Iran having nuclear energy, it's just that most people don't believe that Iran is just after nuclear energy.
Hell nobody has any grounds on which to object to Iran having nuclear energy, as nuclear energy is not forbidden for anyone.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
I don't think anyone but a few nuts are saying Iran has no right to civilian nuclear energy.
Either way, it would be against international law to deprive them of that right since it's enshrined in the NPT.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
One issue, though, is that a number of folks are getting rather... over-flattering about the size and quality of reactor you need in order to develop weapons-grade nuclear materials through the back door. I believe that Israel staunchly opposed Iran getting any sort of reactor, for instance, and enforced it through bombings and sabotage.
Personally, I don't think that Iran wants the bomb - it wants the credible potential to have a bomb. It offers much of the same intimidation factor and gives them a powerful, flexible card to play in diplomatic negotiations. We're basically seeing the concept of the nuclear deterrent go meta.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
Pretty much. Iran is not North Korea, a pariah with nothing left to lose. Those sanctions hurt, they may have suppressed the Greens in 2009 but that doesn't mean those people are all dead or gone or anything, and the Revolutionary Guard wants to be making money too. The massive sanctions regime that would come with going full nuclear would not sit well with them.
Really, Israel was saying they should have no reactors at all? I mean, they're a non-sig to the NPT so they can at least say that with a straight face, but still...
(Avatar by Coffee)
Not Israel. Bibi. There was stuff about the Mossad not really agreeing with him.
So in other words, it's all charade? Bibi and the Republicans can really shake their hands, there. One's problems are as fake as the other's.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
edited 29th Mar '15 3:27:41 PM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
A procrastination in of itself
Yeah Mossad seem to be of a mind that Iran isn't (at the moment) actually trying to build bombs. Which rather drives home the fact that was Bibi is afraid of isn't a nuclear armed Iran, it's an Iran with the possibility of going nuclear if say Bibi pushed the US to invade and bring about regime change.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
It all comes back to this guy. Netanyahu is the next Berlusconi, clearly, outrageous figure with low credibility and a tendency for pissing everyone off (domestic and abroad), yet keeps getting re-elected.
To be fair, at least Berlusconi had some hilarious moments.
Shameful Display
Also Italy is not under risk of animation and being isolated form the international community if it offends the wrong people,Israel is. They cannot afford to have a fuckup on the scale of Berlesconi in power for any length of time.
HGW XX/7
Israel has also traditionally run more or less smoothly between wars, whilst Italy traditionally lurches from crisis to crisis, like a house of cards on a flimsy dinghy being tossed in a storm.
edited 29th Mar '15 4:20:47 PM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
I doubt that even Israel has the leverage on the US to get them to launch a regime change on Iran, barring a major act of aggression on Tehran's part. With the memory of Iraq so fresh in the minds of the public, even a GOP controlled White House/Congress wouldn't risk the overwhelming domestic opposition (not to mention once again trashing their international credibility, just as it's starting to recover after Iraq) an outright invasion would bring. And that's not getting into the monetary costs and the fact that the US military has other problems that are actually problems.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
RE Israel resuming tax payment transfers to the PA:
It did not give their reasons, but Israeli media reported earlier this week that military commanders had said the policy was fuelling violence in the occupied West Bank.
Thus speaks yoneld:
The Defense Ministry particularly is located in Tel Aviv, but I've seen many people on this thread use Tel Aviv as a metonym for Israel as a whole, which I do not get. Jerusalem is where most non-defense-related decisions are being made, so that should be the metonym.
Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
HGW XX/7
Jerusalem isn't yours. Stop pretending it is.
edited 30th Mar '15 5:12:29 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
United Earth
I didn't know that; I thought all ministry central hubs were located in Tel Aviv.
I am not sure how much it would weaken us. It's not like we can use nukes whenever we feel like just because nobody else in the Middle East has them. Nukes are our last ditch, "taking you with us" option. A nuclear arm race won't change that. In fact, I think the only country it would weaken is the US who would no longer be able to threaten countries in the region with military intervention.
edited 29th Mar '15 9:39:40 AM by nnokwoodeye1