Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
That Denmark Personified is awesome.
... What? Just because I'm a strongly and outspokenly anti-Israelnote Muslim Arab doesn't mean that I believe in or condone anti-Jewism or Holocaust denial.
edited 13th Mar '14 10:05:41 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Wandering Jew
The reason the Supreme Court might take up the threshold law is the potential it has to disenfranchise the minority parties.
And yes, they might go after the new recruitment law because it doesn't equalize the burden enough. I personally don't have an opinion on the matter, I'm just reporting that the laws are controversial, going by Israeli media.
And again, I'm not saying the referendum law is controversial, but it was tied to the other two, which are.
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
The minority parties would just have to coalesce. So long as it doesn't disenfranchise the minorities altogether by setting the bar too high, it just changes the playing field. A fair few Jewish parties will have to coalesce too, by the looks of it.
Professional Smartass
Wouldn't it be hilarious no party managed to get above the threshold of admittance?
edited 13th Mar '14 12:04:28 PM by Qeise
Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
They're not tied that closely together. They just happened to be voted on closely together. The courts will not strike down a basic law under any circumstances,so the referendum bill is untouchable.
United Earth
Unconstitutional? I thought Israel had no written constitution?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
HGW XX/7
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Why would that mean things can't be unconstitutional?
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Because of the controversy surrounding the idea of a constitution when it was founded (the religious wanted the Torah to be the constitution), Israel decided to make a constitution slowly, through the passing of basic laws. For all intents and purposes the basic laws as they currently stand ARE Israel's constitution.
United Earth
Well, no written constitution leaves lots of wriggle room and power vacuums and exploitable stuff. Basically, there's no explicit sense of what is unconstitutional.
Ah, that makes sense. I can't imagine running an entire modern country that's Leviticus-compliant.
edited 13th Mar '14 12:51:14 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
If they're anything like the UK, then they have a written constitution, but not one codified into a single document. So, a giant hodgepodge of treaties, case-law, and plain ol' rule-of-thumb.
What's precedent ever done for us?
HGW XX/7
That's not true at all. The UK does not have a single-document constitution, and yet Britain has very clear principles of constitutionality. I imagine Israel is the same.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
United Earth
I heard Tony Blair in particular did a lot of power-hogging during his rule.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
HGW XX/7
Yes, but he never, to the best of my knowledge, actually acted unconstitutionally. Lord Hailsham didn't call the office of the Prime Minister "the elected dictatorship" for nothing.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
First time I know that the Israeli government has no singular written constitution. Kinda understandable given the nature of Israeli politics, though.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
United Earth
My point exactly. He'd never have gotten away with what he did with a written constitution.
@Ogodei - The only Jewish party in the Knesset that would have to merge is Kadima, which is already a dead man walking. At least two (if not all) of the Arab parties would have to, and even then it's not that simple. The Arab List is Islamist, the other two are socialist/anti-Zionist and communist/Arab-Jewish. In short, the three don't mesh well politically and thus to force them to amalgamate (when the majority has a plethora of parties to represent their various political hews) can easily be argued as being disenfranchising.
Therefore I wouldn't so easily dismiss a challenge being made. Personally, I think the raising of the threshold is a necessity and that the Arab parties, if they care, will rise to the occasion, but that won't prevent me from pointing out that others may not see it that way.
Perhaps the referendum bill won't be touched by the courts, but should Labor come to power again, they may change the law. My point is, by not going through the regular process, there is a political taint to the law within the Knesset itself, no matter what the law itself says.
edited 13th Mar '14 2:03:26 PM by FFShinra
United Earth
Arab-Jewish?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Ethnic Arabs practising Judaism, I'd figure.
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
Socialism and Islamism have bedded together before (general third-worldism in some countries, basically). I'm not saying i'm especially in favor of it, but it's not especially odious.
What do some of the party names mean, anyway. What do "Kadima" and "Likud" stand for?
@The Handle - By Arab-Jewish I mean coalition between the two groups. Those who favor more friendly relations between the two communities, I think, but thats just a guess on my part.
If those were the only platforms either party was on, then yes, but they aren't.
EDIT- No idea what Kadima is, but I heard Likud was the Coalition. Or something.
edited 13th Mar '14 2:23:48 PM by FFShinra
United Earth
That sort of goes against the notion of Jews being one ethnic group, descended from Hebrews.
Oh. That's nice. I like that.
edited 13th Mar '14 2:24:03 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Kadima means forward, (Ha)Likud means (the) unification/consolidation.
HGW XX/7
Hogwash. The big critique of the Thatcher/Blair style of government was that it was too "presidential".
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Yet another amusing webcomic about the Holocaust.
Schild und Schwert der Partei