Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
United Earth
How does that draft law go?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
I believe he's referring to the one linked to at the bottom of this post a couple of pages back.
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Ah, I was mistaken.
edited 5th Mar '14 5:23:18 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Beware the Crazy Man.
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Til now, the Haredi have been exempt from serving in the IDF. The Knesset is about to change that exemption. The Haredi are...displeased.
edited 5th Mar '14 5:18:00 AM by FFShinra
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
What, do they have something against military service? You'd think they'd be the first to endorse "defending the Jewish homland!" through strength of arms, being effectively a fundamentalist strain of Judaism and all.
edited 5th Mar '14 5:26:15 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
They're fundamentalist pacifists, as I recall.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
... "Fundamentalist pacifists". Never thought I'd see both words combined to describe one group/religion/ideology/philosophy. Seems almost like an oxymoron.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Beware the Crazy Man.
The Amish would like to speak to you.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Also the Muslim Brotherhood, actually.
What's precedent ever done for us?
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
We're veering off-topic here.
You sure you're not mistaking the Brotherhood for the Salafis? (Though I'll admit that some branches of the Brotherhood in other countries have turned to fundamentalism; it's not a monolithic transnational organization, after all.)
The Amish, fundamentalists? How?
edited 5th Mar '14 5:34:56 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
United Earth
The Haredim the sort of guys who just want to live their sectarian lives in the Holy Land and, if possible, pray all day and be as close to the Lord as possible. Some of them get a lot of flak for taking it to the extreme of being "Welfare Queens", making tons of children and living off the resulting benefits, if memory serves.
edited 5th Mar '14 5:38:12 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I have one question about the Haredi. Do they support Israel militarization?
HGW XX/7
The IDF claim (via their blog) to have intercepted a shipment of Iranian rockets bound for Gaza.
Obviously, given the source, take this with a healthy pinch of Lot's wife.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
V
Some of them don't even support the existence of Israel.
Yet quite possible.
edited 5th Mar '14 6:27:24 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
United Earth
Frankly, I don't think they need it; from what I saw of their culture, they seem custom-built for the sorts of ghettos, communes and colonies that keep themselves to themselves, that no-one else cares about.
edited 5th Mar '14 6:35:46 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
V
Well, it has got to the stage of low-level terrorism; as The Other Wiki says:
[have] gained international attention for acts of violence they committed against Orthodox Jewish institutions and individuals who would not comply with their demands.
The reason the haredim need so much welfare is that they've created a new system in Israel where vast masses of people just sit and study Talmud all day instead of working. This never existed before in the ghettos and villages of eastern Europe. There the vast majority worked in some capacity to support their families and the most brilliant students were able to devote themselves to Talmud and be supported by the community. At the start Israel agreed to support the top students like the situation had been in Europe. Like the American draft in the 60s, the idea was that the most brilliant students would be exempt from serving in the military, but eventually the haredim began to exploit the situation-because it was the government providing the support instead of private donors-and now there are masses of people not working for a living instead of the prodigies.
United Earth
I sense that there are chunks missing from that story. There are plenty of states that subsidize education without such abuse.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Subsidizing education usually means helping to put younger people through school so that they can become productive members of society later. Studying Talmud all day can help in many professions, but only if you also train for that profession. Subsidizing nothing but the study of Talmud is paying people not to learn how to work.
If it was only the elite that got these subsidies it would be fine, as that would be training the future religious leaders of the community. But there won't be tens of thousands of leaders.
V
Ballot is battleground for Israeli town torn by religion
Now more liberal voters in the town of 80,000 are mobilising to topple the incumbent and, they hope, stem the influence of religious zealots they see as a growing challenge.
"This election is our last chance to save Beit Shemesh," said Noa Kedmi, 28, who has lived in the town for eight years.
The town 35 km (22 miles) west of Jerusalem gained notoriety in 2011 after an eight-year-old girl from a more liberal religious community was spat at by ultra-Orthodox men who deemed her clothes immodest. Several protests, some violent, have erupted over religious issues since.
They are mostly poor and unemployed, with many men pursuing religious studies for life rather than working. They get small state stipends for this traditional life of study and child benefits for their large families. Many Israelis resent the Haredim, who they see as burdening the economy and sponging off the state while avoiding duties, such as compulsory military service, that bind most others.
For the first time in a decade, Israel's governing coalition has no ultra-Orthodox members watching out for Haredi interests. In fact, it includes parties that made significant gains running on an anti-religious platform in the 2013 general election.
United Earth
Why can't we all just get along?
Also, spitting on people for their clothes is...
I wonder how they'd react to Mikisugi Aikuro...
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
HGW XX/7
Polandball takes on the Israel-Palestine conflict.
◊
Beware the Crazy Man.
I remember a few pages ago bringing up the possibility of the Knesset changing the party election threshold. I'd just like to announce that it seems Israel has gone ahead and done that.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
IINM they had already raised the limit to 2% (yeah, it used to be even lower) before doing it again now. Personally, I have no idea why they set the limit so low; Germany, for example, has had their minimum at a more manageable 5% since decades ago.
Is that red blob in the last panel the USSR?
edited 11th Mar '14 9:26:35 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
United Earth
An interesting double-edged sword. Though, frankly, more consensus in the Knesset wouldn't be unwelcome. As for the Arab parties, I thought they were sidelined and irrelevant anyways? And what's this about Arab parties anyways? That sounds kinda racist, this segregation by ethnicity.
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Some people there are accusing the haredi of that for protesting the new draft law.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...