What are your personal "red flags" before reading any fanfic?

@Lentilles

What I mean is that there are stories which are perfectly fine except some questionable elements. I would say that it would be rather wasteful to throw away the story instead of fixing it. Generally, I do not think that ValuesDissonance automatically makes the story more interesting, as you seem to think. It can just make it worse for no gain. Perhaps, but I again I do not think that make few changes is automatically a bad idea. When it comes to fiction (fanfiction or not), I try to be as open-minded as possible. I ask myself "is this a good story ?" not "it is good because it fits some particular criteria".

Edited by Risa123 on Jun 15th 2023 at 7:45:07 PM

I think when there's Values Dissonance in the original canon, there are two ways to deal with that in a fanfic:

1) Characters keep the morality they were intended to be viewed with, but in light of the new lens from the new author, lose their less savoury elements. Eg an otherwise loving parent from a casually homophobic canon would accept their gay child in a Slash Fic.

2) The character keeps the bigotry or such that they are implied to have by the canon narrative, but it's depicted as a character flaw. This can vary from depicting them as a Troubled Sympathetic Bigot or the like all the way to Ron the Death Eater

Both approaches are valid, imo. It just depends on what the author is trying to do with their fic. A Fluff Fic will probably go for the first option. A more serious look at bigotry or a Deconstruction Fic might go for the second.

The first is pretty much what I meant in my first, but said in a much better way. Thanks. EDIT: To elaborate and perhaps repeat myself. I would argue that "intended morality" (loving parent) has higher priority then upholding details of canonical execution (happens to homophobic because the author was).

Edited by Risa123 on Jun 15th 2023 at 10:41:31 AM

Mind you, I don't necessarily think the second option is bad. Deliberate Values Dissonance can be a very interesting trope when used right and is a great way of confronting biases in the original canon.

For the homophobic parent example, for instance, you could make an interesting character arc of the parent outgrowing their bigotry for the love of their child. Of course, if it's just used for Ron the Death Eater where the parent is the only homophobic character, then I can see why it rubs people the wrong way.

Just to be sure I was not saying that. And Yeah, that "redemption arc" sounds like an interesting way to take advantage of flaws in canon instead of removing them.

Edited by Risa123 on Jun 15th 2023 at 10:56:30 AM

That is where our disagreement comes from: "fixing" the story is another red flag of mine. To be blunt, I believe that thinking you can "fix" someone else story is presumptuous, while also being something in which I am not interested. And most of the time with fanfiction, it's not fixing anything! It's only making it more palatable to the person writing it, catering to narrow interests, and diminishing it's value as fanfiction. When I look for fanfiction, I don't look for any good story, I look for a good story about the work in question.

As for the example, not only is the story of a loving but also homophobic parent more interesting that simply removing his homophobia, I also kinda doubt that the homosexual awakening of a child has anything to do with a story written by a homophobic author, so I wouldn't be interested anyway. (Or the original story is about how homosexuality is wrong, and I wouldn't be looking for fanfiction about it in the first place.)

And in the case of a few questionable elements, I rather them be not mentioned at all or, if it doesn't fit the fic, be imported exactly as they are in the original work.

Edited by Lentilles on Jun 15th 2023 at 5:59:54 PM

I would argue that this constitutes "fixing" the story as well. Omission is a change as well. Well as you expect I'm going to disagree. Concerning the presumptuous charge, I'm going to say that it is possible to like the story, but think it has flaws. You can respect the original, but still want to fix it. Also, the value of fiction is subjective, it is always about catering to specific interests.

EDIT: When you write fiction you are always making it good by your standard, not any other because there is no such thing as objectively good story. Fanfiction is not different.

EDIT 2: What I mean is that fiction is always meant to appeal to specific people. When you write, say sci-fi then it is only going to appeal to people who like sci-fi what is wrong about that ? Or to be more specific, since the entire genre is still rather wide. When you write a story whose major strength is a realistic depiction of tank combat (you can substitute it any "very specific story I would like to see" if you want). You are appealing to a very narrow group of people, I would say. Does it mean that the story is bad ?

Edited by Risa123 on Jun 16th 2023 at 12:27:18 PM

Not bad! But something I'm not remotely interested in? More likely.

And omission is not necessarily a change? I'm just going to assume it happened off screen.

Edited by Lentilles on Jun 16th 2023 at 1:59:18 PM

Does the exclamation mark mean you are angry ? In that case, please calm down or leave if this discussion makes you uncomfortable. Anyway, so you seriously believe that any change to cannon, no matter how trivial, is bad. And you are not going to give the story a chance ? You seem to be assuming that there is no possibility that the change is for better rather than worse. Fair enough

I would like to return to one of your previous claims.

I'm also going to be blunt, assuming that there is no way a fanfic author can make the story better is just as presumptuous, narrow-minded and disrespectful towards any fanfic author. At least the competent ones, who to be fair are very rare.

EDIT: Like, do you prefer OriginalFlavor ? Fine, but this is not very nice of you.

Edited by Risa123 on Jun 16th 2023 at 5:15:47 PM

No anger on my part. Sorry if the exclamation mark made it to look like it.

I do prefer Original Flavor, because I want more of the work I liked. But I fail to see how taste in fanfiction correlate to niceness; it's just what I like.

EDIT: To expend on my dislike of the concept of fixing an original work, the quality of art is, at least in part, subjective. That means it's impossible for someone to write an objectively better story than the original author(s), regardless of the quality of the work in question. What they do is write something that is more to their taste. And it could coincide with my taste. But my experience taught me that it’s too rare an occurrence to be worth checking out.

Edited by Lentilles on Jun 19th 2023 at 10:07:56 AM

You have called people with a different idea about writing fan fiction presumptuous, that is what I find "not nice" about your claims. You did not say "I have a different taste", but "people who have a different taste are arrogant". Maybe I have misunderstood, but this is how I see it. Are people who do "fixing" claiming that their work is objectively better ? I mean, some do I guess, but that says something about them, not about "fixing". I would say that they are generally aware it is only better to their taste.

EDIT: I have actually recently read a fanfic that has a premise of "fixing" SG 1 episode. The author from something to the effect of "my biggest issues with Disclosure episode are" not "Here is my objectively better take on Disclosure and if you disagree you are an idiot".

We can agree about this at least. Fair enough, I guess, but since we are having a discussion here, let me dispute this policy of yours. There are people who would use the same argument to say that fan fiction is not worth "checking out" in general, and to be fair to them, being a fanfic reader can be pretty frustrating at times. There are a lot of bad stories. Lot of good stories that will never be finished. Lot of stories with great premises that were completely wasted by terrible execution. Since you are a fanfic reader, you have decided to give it a chance despite all this. Why stop here ?

My personal policy regarding fiction in general is to give almost everything a fair chance. Only exception are "reader protagonist". That is the only premise I will call inherently bad because the reader is not actually me. Then we have a lot of stories that simply do not appeal to me, but I do not call their authors "presumptuous" just because of that. In fact I generally refrain for any judgments because I have to read the story.

Now let's return to your admission that "fix" story could hypothetically be could. Would you give it a chance ? If you genuinely thought it that the change would make things better. I'm sure that do not believe that original fiction is flawless, after all. This is in fact what rubbed me the wrong way about your opinion. It seemed to presume that fanfic authors are simply too incompetent to make original story better in any way. Again, since you are a fanfic reader I would assume that you have some faith in the abilities of a fanfic writer.

Edited by Risa123 on Jun 19th 2023 at 4:01:25 PM

Why stop there? Mostly because my time is limited. If I had all the time in the world then, sure, I would try absolutely everything. But, alas, I must die someday and therefor have to decide if this fanfic is one I will enjoy or if I'm better off playing Tears of the Kingdom.

It's not about incompetence at all, it's very much about taste. It's what I find presumptuous: thinking that your tastes are better than the original author's. I may have been too virulent in my previous post, but the feeling was born after reading countless of fanfictions that the author professed were better than canon and finding them definitely worse (and some were written by obviously talented people!).

People want to transform a work to be more suited to their tastes, I get that. While it is unfortunate that my tastes are so far removed from your average fanfiction writer, it is what it is. But it frustrates me when they affirm that the original author(s) are wrong/a coward/a shill/etc. for a decision they disapprove of, which some definitely do.

Well it would have helped if you said that in the beginning you know. There is a difference between "trying to change a story to suit your tastes is inherently wrong and presumptuous to do" and "I do not like people who think that they have a better taste than the original author". The second is fine and even something I can agree with. The first on the other hand is pretty much saying that people are arrogant for having a different taste than you.

EDIT: Just as you hate this, I hate when people pass judgments on very general concepts in and claim that can never be good. And "fixing" a story very much is a very general concept that can mean a lot of things.

EDIT 2: Just so you know why I expressed my displeasure with the whole presumptuous thing.

Edited by Risa123 on Jun 20th 2023 at 11:27:04 AM

It's all good. That was a good conversation that made me question the deeper reason of an immediate feeling.

Good, it was an interesting conversation for me as well.

EDIT:Question how if I may ask ?

Edited by Risa123 on Jun 21st 2023 at 10:36:13 AM

I hadn't broken down before what exactly I found wrong with "fixing" the story; it was more of an empiric feeling.

I dont mean to tone police but I feel an abrasive vibe to this discussion, we may want to chill a bit.

Discord: Waido X 255#1372 If you cant contact me on TV Tropes do it here.

I do not feel that. Maybe before Lentiles did admit that they were somewhat virulent after all, but that is past us, I would say.

Good, that is the point of discussing things I would say.

Edited by Risa123 on Jun 22nd 2023 at 11:20:50 AM

Actually they werent virulent at all, they just said they wouldnt read fanfiction that didnt suit their tastes, which sadly to say you cant force anyone to do things they dont want to do.

Discord: Waido X 255#1372 If you cant contact me on TV Tropes do it here.

Another Nitpicking bit, but I don't like the premise with characters with "amnesia". It feels like OOC characters with loopholes. "Oh, they're totally in characters because they have amnesia."

Fanfics are all for what can we expand with already established characters. These amnesia bits are just pure OOC imo and only few did a good job with these kind of premise.

Does that mean I don't get the job?

I should note that "being virulent" is not something I claimed, that was something they themselves admitted.

EDIT: Even more importantly, I had issue with "people with different tastes are presumptuous" rather than with the fact that someone had different taste than me.

EDIT 2: Yeah, amnesia can be a useful plot point, but if you are using it as an excuse to avoid having to write in-character, you are doing it wrong.

Edited by Risa123 on Jun 23rd 2023 at 1:33:25 PM

Any sort of character bashing or Ron the Death Eater, even if it's a character I don't like I still want them to be portrayed accurately.

I don't mind The Stations of the Canon. In fact, it can be interesting to see how a particular au or retelling handles a canon plot but I hate it when fics bend over backwards to make canon events happen, especially Role Swap AU fics. A specific example of this is the many Batman fics where some batkid who isn't Jason or Barbara dies or loses the use of their legs and yet they still become Red Hood or Oracle and mostly follow Jason/Barbara's role in the original comics. Exploring how that particular batkid (usually Dick, Tim or Steph) would handle a Career-Ending Injury or a being killed and then resurrecting without slapping someone else's storyline over them would be much more interesting.

Another one is fics turning characters into doormats who are mistreated by almost everyone and need to be saved.

Edited by LadyBlackwood on Jun 24th 2023 at 11:06:52 AM

The "characters getting turned into doormats" thing is another one that really puts me off as well. I'm totally fine with a character having complex and traumatic experiences to work through, but when they're getting a ton of nonsense heaped on them to try to make the reader feel bad.... it never works.

I've actually found that and Ron the Death Eater tend to show up a lot at the same time, like conflicts between characters get warped into "character 1 is the evil irredeemable monster" and "character 2 is the poor innocent victim who gets beaten down constantly". And it's really annoying when that's not what it was like in the original story at all. Very quick way to make me close a fic and never look at it again.

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.

The fics where author keeps in notes ranting about various subjects whether they are related to fic or not

Its subtle one but it often leads at some point something bad happening

I'm pretty sure that this has been mentioned before but in my experience, a fic having more than 15 tags listed is not a good sign. Conversely, some of the best fics I've ever read have 10 tags at the absolute max. Sometimes less is more.

Another pretty obvious red flag is when the tags include references to specific sexual acts or positions as it pretty much guarantees that the fic will be pointless smut.