Superman General

The Silver Age versions seemed to have a teenager style crush on each other. And the Daily Planet appeared to only have four people running it. Three of whom seemed to be having wacky adventures often enough that there can't be a way they actually did their jobs as well.

I don't know—so long as they got good pictures of those wacky adventures and wrote about them well, I suppose they could keep their jobs.

Being a killer doesn't mean you're a murderer, and there's a big difference between killing in combat and an execution. We good? Not as in, "are you converted to my viewpoint," but as in "do we finally understand one another's positions, and if so, are we done?"

Oh, I understand your position, I just don't agree with it.

Look, there is very, very little that can actually hurt Superman, much less kill him. As that Superboy story stated, he has the luxury of having a no-kill rule because, really, he doesn't need to kill in self-defense. And most times, he doesn't. I'd say 99% of the time, in stories, even when he is fully justified in killing a villain to stop his rampage, he doesn't — instead, he finds a different way, he gets the civilians out of the way, he imprisons the villain instead of killing them.

The 1% where he does kill are situations which had profound impact on him and caused him extreme mental distress. (Well, aside from Doomsday, where he died and when he came back, he didn't really have distress because, uh, Doomsday came back as well.) Having a superhero like Superman in extreme mental distress isn't a good thing. After killing Zod, he developed a split personality. Superman has relied on not killing so much that when it happens, he literally cannot deal with it (hence him giving up his powers in "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?"). He eventually does deal with in in the story because, well, they still wanted to use Superman, so everyone pretty much forgot about that time he killed Zod and the others.

But my position, as I have outlined before, is that Superman, when faced with a decision between killing and death, should, in fact, find another way.

The end! No more! Last word!

So, re: Lois Lane, have you guys ever read "Superman Takes a Wife"? It's a great Silver Age story about the Earth-2 Superman where he forgets that he's Superman, stops using his bumbling persona, and instead becomes a crusading reporter like Lois. And Lois basically falls in love with him like that (when he's not using any mask) and they get married. And even when Superman's memories are restored (due to Lois actually), he wants to stay married.

edited 28th May '15 7:06:23 PM by alliterator

In the 70's, Superman and Lois actually had a relationship, as in, they actually dated and such. Lana Lang was in the picture as well, given that she had decided she was in love with Clark and was actively pursuing him. By the early 80's, Superman and Lois had "broken up" and were kind of in a "care for each other, but not pursuing each other or dating" place. Then of, course, came Crisis and Man of Steel. Byrne made Lois over into what many readers have said is his favorite kind of female lead: brassy, confident, and not a little bit abrasive. The early 90's gave us Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman (Jeanette Kahn had wanted to pitch a Lois-centered Superman show since she became DC's President in the 70's) and the hated (by me anyway) nickname "Smallville." In the comics, though, I agree that this era had probably the best, most well-rounded and likeable Lois.

But yeah, Silver Age Lois was nuts. I agree with the idea that their relationship during this era is a bit like two grade schoolers trying to show how much they like each other by being pains in the butt. You have to remember that Superman comics at this time WERE written expressly for kids, and Mort Weisinger actually got story ideas from kids in his neighborhood. Explains a bit why both Superman and Lois are so childish here. Still, though, Lois on radio and in the 50's Superman TV series was a much, much better, more interesting character. Really an "intrepid girl reporter".

As to Siegel and Shuster's original portrayal, as with Byrne, I don't think they themselves viewed it at all negatively. Interestingly, Siegel wanted to alter the dynamic between Superman and Lois early on, have him take her into his confidence and have them work together. It would have happened in a story that introduced Kryptonite, then called "Element K," but it was nixed by his editors. Still, I think the worst you can say about Golden Age Lois is she needs to grow up; taken seriously, Silver Age Lois needs therapy.

I may be mistaken, but I think Superman and Lois got married as well in the Superman newspaper comic strip in the 50's, and stayed married for quite awhile.

edited 28th May '15 7:42:31 PM by Robbery

I wonder if we're going to get more stories with the pre-Flashpoint Superman and Lois Lane? Because during Convergence, Lois had a baby (Jonathan Samuel Kent) and then they went off with pre-Crisis Flash and Supergirl and Parallax to stop the original Crisis.

Pre-Flashpoint Lois was awesome, by the way. During Convergence when the domes were down (and nobody had powers), she acted as the Oracle to the powerless Superman when he went out to fight crime.

Hey, that "Smallville" nickname at least had one upside—it let the TV show of the same name justify continuing to call itself that after most of the action shifted to Metropolis.

Speaking of which, a montage of Clark and Lois moments from that show:

Because hell, even Smallville got somethings right.

I think writing Superman as incapable of dealing with killing is a problem as it reduces his decision not to the vast majority of the time to a psychological necessity rather than a moral choice. I prefer a Superman who avoids killing whenever possible because it is the right thing to do, as opposed to one who is literally, psychologically incapable of it, you know what I mean?

I also think a key difference between the Doomsday and Zod incidents is not that Doomsday came back, but that Doomsday was a fight, while Zod was an execution. Those are two very different things. As for most things being unable to hurt him, Post-Crisis I'd say most of his villains are fully able to do so. That's why it's impressive that, barring Doomsday and Brainiac, he is typically able to subdue them without resorting to lethal levels of force.

Anyway, I'm done.

edited 28th May '15 7:59:52 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I think writing Superman as incapable of dealing with killing is a problem as it reduces his decision not to the vast majority of the time to a psychological necessity rather than a moral choice.

It can't be both?

I also think a key difference between the Doomsday and Zod incidents is not that Doomsday came back, but that Doomsday was a fight, while Zod was an execution.

This I completely agree with. I also don't think he was intentionally trying to kill Doomsday, but rather stop him from hurting anyone in Metropolis. The killing was just a side-effect of the stopping.

As for most things being unable to hurt him, Post-Crisis I'd say most of his villains are fully able to do so.

Ehhhh, maybe. Certainly, post-Crisis, there was more of a willingness to have Superman go up against villains as powerful as him. But most of the villains were weaker, they just had tricks to bring Superman down (like Metallo and his kryptonite or Lex Luthor and his...kryptonite). I mean "making Superman weaker" is not quite the same as "as strong or powerful as Superman."

And now I'm done, too.

edited 28th May '15 8:03:44 PM by alliterator

I wasn't going to respond, but then I realized, hey, we've moved beyond the actual "should he kill" debate, and some of this could make for a genuinely interesting discussion.

"It can't be both?"

Not really, I think. If you're totally incapable of going through with something for psychological reasons then you don't really have a choice. It's just something you cannot, or at least should not, do, not for moral reasons, but for the sake of your own mental health. If you can do something, but choose not to, then it's a moral choice.

Now I suppose you could argue that somebody could be so moral that certain things are impossible for them to do, but when you do that you make their morality seem like a mental illness. I don't want people thinking "Superman is a good person because he'd have a breakdown if he wasn't", I'd rather they think "Superman is a good person because he chooses to be one".

"Certainly, post-Crisis, there was more of a willingness to have Superman go up against villains as powerful as him. But most of the villains were weaker, they just had tricks to bring Superman down (like Metallo and his kryptonite or Lex Luthor and his...kryptonite)."

Well, Kryptonite's a way of hurting him, so I'd say that still qualifies. Actually, something I like about his Pre-Crisis rogues gallery is that there's far less abuse of Kryptonite. Metallo uses it, but is also a super strong, incredibly durable cyborg who could give him a fight without it. Luthor uses it, but also dons a warsuit that lets him go toe-to-toe with the likes of Brainiac. Essentially the Kryptonite winds up supporting what Metallo and Luthor can otherwise do, instead of being their whole arsenal.

As for the rest of the rogues gallery, Brainiac, in all his forms, is capable of hurting Superman. Mongul I arguably overpowered him Pre-Crisis, and remains in that area today. Cyborg-Superman has all his powers, plus Kryptonian, Apokoliptian, and Oan weaponry integrated into his shell. General Zod and the other Kryptonians (and Bizarro, Ultraman and Superboy-Prime) have his identical powerset. Parasite can duplicate his powers, and Neutron's radiation, Livewire's electricity, and various telepathic and magical foes are all capable of injuring him. And that's of course not mentioning Doomsday, whose raw power, even post-Villain Decay, is staggering.

I'd say at this stage most of the Superman rogues are capable of hurting him. Which is great. Watching Superman constantly rearrest guys who didn't stand a chance against him wouldn't exactly make for riveting fiction.

edited 28th May '15 8:17:00 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

There was actually a cool storyline pre-Crisis called the Sandman Saga (or "Kryptonite Nevermore") where all Kryptonite is rendered into normal iron, so Superman doesn't actually have that as weakness anymore. Then some sandmen start draining his power, reducing his power levels to a more Golden Age version.

Of course, it didn't last long. Superman's powers were restored and Kryptonite came back eventually.

I don't want people thinking "Superman is a good person because he'd have a breakdown if he wasn't", I'd rather they think "Superman is a good person because he chooses to be one".

Well, certainly before he had that mental breakdown, he chose to be a good person. It was just that after he killed, he had a mental breakdown. He didn't know about it beforehand.

edited 28th May '15 8:27:53 PM by alliterator

I've read it, actually. My personal stance on Kryptonite is that it's fine in the possession of a few characters, like Metallo and Luthor (and Reactron for Supergirl) but should never be used en masse like it was in the Silver Age.

RE: Mental breakdown

If the reason he refrains from doing it again is because of the breakdown, though, that's not a moral choice. That's a mental health choice (which I don't begrudge him, of course, but it ain't the most heroic thing ever, either). Again, I prefer a Superman who is fully capable, mentally and emotionally, of taking a life, but doesn't do it because it a) wouldn't be right, and b) can typically find another option.

edited 28th May '15 8:30:56 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Or Smallville.

That got so old, so fast. Kryptonite bank notes, Kryptonite truth serums, Kryptonite everything. One reason I really liked Season 9, aside from Major Zod being pretty cool, was that there was a lot less Kryptonite.

Don't forget Kryptonite gum! It's Stride!

I mean, it also helped that Zod was played by Callum Blue, who was probably the best actor on the show.

edited 28th May '15 8:39:28 PM by alliterator

John Glover (Lionel) and James Marsters (Brainiac) were also very, very good. There's a reason why, when they needed to salvage the last season's plot, they brought Glover back.

Methinks that Smallville spent all its money on the villains.

edited 28th May '15 8:46:15 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

And then they went and messed it up with the last episode by having Darkseid as...a possessed Lionel Luthor zombie with grayish skin or something? And then Clark defeats him with a flying punch?

I was with the last season up until that episode. If you want to use Darkseid, use Darkseid. I mean, you have both Michael Ironside and Darkseid on the show and yet never does it occur to the writers to get Ironside to play Darkseid? Ever?

Man, I would have killed to see Ironside do Darkseid's Final Crisis speech.

edited 28th May '15 9:02:23 PM by alliterator

The finale sucked. You will get no argument from me on that one. I was hoping it'd be Ironside who got possessed, but frankly, Glover would have been fine too if they'd actually bothered to put in some effort.

I heard the Smallville Season 11 comics are better. They are written by Bryan Q. Miller, who wrote the best episodes of the last seasons (and also the Stephanie Brown Batgirl comic).

Smallville Season 11 is amazing.

I'm just glad they brought back Tess. Because geez her exit in the show was awful.

They did? Sweet. Now I have to find the first volume.

Indeed they did.

Cassidy Freeman is awesome and also entirely wasted in Longmire.

Again, something you and I agree on.

It's a miracle. (They alive dammit. Crap, I just got that song out of my head.)

The thing that finally allowed me to wrap my head around Silver Age Superman is when I realized that it's essentially a sitcom. The comics code had crippled the dramatic possibilities of comics, so they turned to humor. Superman and Lois are no worse than a Seinfeld character or someone from MASH.

It's "I Love Lucy", only instead of Lucy constantly trying to break into show business, we have Lois Lane constantly trying to learn Superman's secret identity and marry him.