Filum Romanum - A Thread for the Catholic Church

@Antiteilchen: What makes you think everyone wants an absolute right to self-ownership? I certainly don't (well, yes, but only for myself- I want other people to occassionally be forced to act responsibly).

@Entropy 13: Yes, but neither divine nor natural law are created by people. Both ultimately originate from God.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

CST distinguishes the two from how it came to be. CST is actually an effort of the church to integrate at least some notion of evolution. "Divine" is a direct, or at least a very abrupt "giving" of the right. Natural rights "developed" itself to existence.

Natural law and divine law are quite different too, although in general the distinction is not quite obvious. Divine law more has to do with a systemic source, and that system is the Church, and is thus "from God". Natural law is "from God" in a sense that the environment in which it was to have formed was "from God", but the law itself wasn't.

CST actually came from the periphery (i.e. from here in the 3rd World), and the more "liberal" portion of the Catholic Church.

edited 12th Jun '14 8:10:33 PM by entropy13

I'm reading this because it's interesting. I think. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, over.

I'm baaaaaaack

• eyeroll*

Sorry for leaving tinder lying around for raging flames to catch, alright? It was the clearest example I could think of.

Anyway, the idea of a natural law that arose from God's creation as opposed to being directly handed down from God is not especially new, but I personally find the distinction between the two to be hairsplitting on par with "can God make a stone so heavy that he can't lift it?"

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.

Well, if you don't want to own yourself, you have the right to sell yourself. Thus self-ownership pleases everyone, if they want to own themsleves or not.

And how are you (intellectually honest) arguing that something should only apply to you? If you don't respect other's rights, why should they respect yours?

China's Christians fend off church demolition crew amid latest Communist Party crackdown on faith.

You know, I expected the crucial difference between Catholicism and "US Libertarianism" to be the attitude to charity, but no, it has to be about abortion instead. Abortion and theoretical metaphysics of what it means to own oneself. I feel somewhere between mildly offended and let down, and I can't put my finger on why.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Opposing libertarianism in the grounds of charity would leave them open to the rebuttal that libertarianism doesn't oppose charity, and that Catholic Social Teaching doesn't necessarily require (or shouldn't necessarily require) charitable giving to be undertaken by the government. Libertarians have nothing against charity undertaken by individuals.

You're confusing the practice of charitable institutions with the principle of charity, which I believe is opposed by the idea of "not having a problem with" private charity but rejecting government welfare. And Libertarians are remarkably uncharitable as a general attitude; "let the idiots kill themselves", "if you're poor it's because you deserve to be", and "there's no such thing as a Leonine Contract" are among the least horribly egregious ideas I've seen circulating in their circles. There's no point in you "having no problem" with people being nice if you're going to be a jerk yourself, and to advocate jerkishness.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Handle, the major difference between Catholic doctrine and American Libertarianism is not abortion. Please don't you try to start up that fight.

It's not as simple as "charity" either. I'd say it's the idea of community responsibility — in both senses: responsibilities of the individual to the community (which Catholicism holds to be very important, and Libertarianism does not) and the responsibilities of the community to the individual (which Libertarianism is all over the place on, but Catholicism places a high value on).

That idea of community responsibility and responsibility to the community can probably be summed up neatly, if tritely, in two conflicting sentences: Libertarianism says "It's no skin off my nose." Catholicism says "No man is an island."

edited 13th Jun '14 1:17:15 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Well, that's a good point, actually. Traditionally, Christians arent very favorable toward meritocracy; we're more favorable toward egalitarianism, since we are all equally insignificant next to God, after all. No one really "deserves" more than anyone else. Unless, you're an enlightenment Protestant, and believe in pre-destination.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

Libertarianism is closest, I believe to traditional Calvinism. Which, regarding social structure, at least, is about as close to diametrically opposite Catholicism as you can get and still be Christian.

edited 13th Jun '14 1:20:51 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Scottish independence: Pope's independence comments welcomed

Keep Rolling On

He makes a good point.

Schild und Schwert der Partei

That's called playing it safe. It basically amounts to "I don't know". Which is good, if true.

Still, it would be hilarious if the Church came out in support of Catalan independence, given that it would go completely against the traditions and self-image of both the Catalinists and the Spain-ists. Both sides would go "Buh?!"

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

He shows he knows what he's talking about, though.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.

He's Right you know*insert pic of Morgan Freeman*

His point's pretty good really. Scotland breaking off can't really be compared to the split of Czechoslovakia(Holy shit I got that right the first try :P ), or Yugoslavia. The English aren't exactly stomping around oppressing them.

I'm baaaaaaack

Though they are annoying as fuck.

Schild und Schwert der Partei

You're not the only one.

The Ayn Rand style of libertarianism we're seeing resurgent most certainly does.

Pope Francis fired the entire board of the Vatican’s financial watchdog last week.

1) Please don't get assassinated. Please don't get assassinated.

2) Please also clean up the dioceses in the Philippines.

3) Then, maybe guilt-trip the Philippine Govt.

I'll settle for 1.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.

From that article:

In the words of Achmed, the Dead Terrorist: "Oh, holy crap!" Go, Francis!

edited 13th Jun '14 7:45:05 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

That's the Jesuit way!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

I don't know if that was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek or not, Handle, but you're dead on correct. Jesuits don't pussyfoot.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

I meant "Jesuits report directly to the Pope". It's kinda their thing.

But that's the problem with a Jesuit becoming pope. To the rest of the orders, this must seem like a bit of a power grab.

edited 13th Jun '14 11:22:48 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

We already mentioned said firing, but this piece of data about "bypass the bureaucracy and talk to me directly" is new.

Can we send His Holiness a complimentary bullwhip?

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.