Filum Romanum - A Thread for the Catholic Church

If you call a dog's tail, a leg, how many legs does he have?

Four, calling his tail a leg doesn't make it one.

Catholics do not worship the saints. We respect them, and ask for their intercession, much the way you might do if you want something and there's someone who has the ear of the person who can give it to you who would be willing to speak to them for you.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

They are also good role models/examples for Catholics to learn from.

Beats me. Sounds like the sort of thing a Catholic would want to ask his priest about. And I recommend that highly—priests need a good laugh and a fund of anecdotes, too.

edited 28th Jan '14 3:45:49 PM by Jhimmibhob

I'm pretty sure that even acknowledging the existence of Zeus wouldn't jive with Catholicism...

Somehow you know that the time is right.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you not saing, that just because Catholics call worshiping Saints not worship doesn't change the fact that it's worship? Because the second part of your post seems to contradict your example.

That seems like a cheap semantics trick to be honest. Worship is showing respect and honor to something. Veneration is practically the same thing. If this kind of word twisting is allowed you could simply say: "I never had sex before marriage, I was never going to marry."

I'll have to side with the protestants on this, sorry.

You can respect and honor your father, but you do not worship him. Now apply that to the saints (who, like most fathers, or, in terms of the fatherly role) are role models and people who may influence you in living a Catholic life and you'll get the gist.

It has semantics, but it also has a lot more than that.

Also, don't forget that saints are celebrated in a sort of "please intercede with God for me" way, not "please, save me from Hell".

Also that.

edited 28th Jan '14 6:53:19 PM by Quag15

No, I'm saying that calling the way Catholics look at saints "worshipping" doesn't make so. We do not worship the saints. To worship is to adore, derived from the Latin adorare — "to pay divine honors to, to bow down before". To venerate (what we do to saints) is to hold in great respect; the word venerate is derived from the Latin veneratus, "to solicit the goodwill of". There's a qualitative difference between the attitude toward God and the attitude towards the saints. We give God adoration: divine honors. We give the Saints veneration: great respect.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

The Old Testament pretty much straight-up acknowledges the existence of other gods. Not Zeus, but there are a few that got an actual nod, and at least one blasted the Hebrews out of his city.

Doctrinally it's a tangle, of course. But we're only sometimes good at following the source material.

edited 28th Jan '14 9:03:05 PM by Pykrete

And if whoever you're trying to get a message to has explicitly said that you should go straight to him?

So is it ok to solicit the goodwill of or venerate pagan gods?

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.

If we go by OT canon, then no, that is a very, very bad idea. Remember about the Golden Calf?

Still, there's a drastic difference between Catholic Canon and Catholic practice. Saints were popularly worshipped as pseudo-gods, there used to be a sait for everything, from throat-aches to indigestion to getting arrested to owing money. And that's just in Europe. In America, you'd be amazed at the rituals the natives are up to in the churches. 'BWOK!' said the chicken in the Mexican church, as it was being beheaded in the name of the Virgin of Whatever.

Even extremely popular, old concepts like the Imaculate Conception were only canoninzed very recently:

They say "papal bull" in English? Awkward...

edited 29th Jan '14 6:16:33 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

You assume that we talk with saints in what's usually and pragmatically understood as a conversation. You shouldn't expect a straightforward message from them (and sometimes, a message itself).

Besides what Handle said, keep in mind that the saints were once human beings who practiced a good Christian life. Pagan gods were never human in first place. Also, there's also the whole "Thou shall have no other gods before me".

Don't forget the process of beatification and canonization. That's key to tell apart who is a saint and who is not.

For a variety of reasons, pagan gods are unlikely to be considered exceptionally good Christians.

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

Actually, why not? If they're genuine sapient beings with genuine power, what's to stop them from worshipping YHWH themselves?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

I think they may be referring to a number of traditional Catholic Saints who are now claimed to have been derived from pagan Gods, St Brigid being probably the best known example. There is some controversy surrounding these claims, with the Catholic Church claiming that in each case they were actual historical persons. The historical records are at least somewhat ambiguous.

Yeah, my point is that the only difference between saints and pagan gods is that the church endorses the former group.

1) Them being good Christians doesn't mean God will be pleased with people directing prayers to it via saints, often making statues or amulets depicting said saints to demonstrate their veneration (not worship).

2) Pretty sure some pagan gods were once human. See religion & mythology in Deity of Human Origin.

3) I know you guys aren't Biblical Literalists, but that just means you should bow lower before Yahweh than all the other gods you happen to worship.

edited 29th Jan '14 8:15:06 AM by Qeise

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.

Point 1) is a grey area to me. I don't know if God will be pleased or not. Some people direct their prayers through the saints towards God, others do it directly, others do both. And making statues and amulets is a small practice, as long as people don't confuse veneration with worship and start putting a saint above (or even on the same level as) God.

Point 2) So? If they're pagan, they're not Christian. There's no pagan mythology where pagan gods even acknowledged the existence of an Abrahamic God, as far as I know.

Point 3) We are not Literalists, but I don't see the point (and other Christians as well) in having other Gods. One is enough to me, thank you very much.

edited 29th Jan '14 8:26:53 AM by Quag15

Not sure what your point is Qeise. Are you accusing Catholics of holding hypocritical beliefs? Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, but so far you haven't presented any reason why someone should agree with you. As far as I can tell, your original question (is it ok to venerate a pagan God?) wasn't sincere. If it was, and you are in fact asking for information, you should probably reword it.

edited 29th Jan '14 8:26:38 AM by demarquis

To your first point, Qeise, if there was something you really wanted to do, but your Mom had to say ok, you'd ask her directly, right? That's praying to God. Asking directly. Now, if you knew that one of her friends would support your request, wouldn't it make sense to ask that friend to also put in a good word with her? Do you think that your mom would take offense at that? That's asking for the saints' intercession. Asking someone who has a closer relationship to God than I do to also put in a good word for me.

edited 29th Jan '14 9:35:30 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

I'd say that's... "unmanly"? Also, given God's alleged impratiality, omniscience and omnibelevolence, unnecessary.

As a matter of fact, there's a boatload of pagan mythologies that acknowledge a Great Spirit, Supreme Being, or other God of Gods. Sometimes they and the Creator are the same, other times they are not. Islam accounts for this by suggesting that all of humanity was once monotheistic, and that man-made idols, which originally were mere works of art, became a focus of belief, together with the shrines and icons of holy men, first by way of intercession, they by way of praying to them rather than to the One. Back when I was a kid and talked to dolls and action figures, this seemed to make sense, the strange appeal of idols and icons. However, according to Islam, there are no other gods, great or minor. There are djinns, though. Extradimensional beings. They can see us, we can't see them, worshipping them is a bad idea because they run on Blue-and-Orange Morality, some of them believe in God and pray, others don't, we shouldn't worry about them because the're nothing we can do either way.

Mythology is fun.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Like I said, an Abrahamic God. And since the djinns are not gods (pagan or otherwise), my point still stands, so we're kinda agreeing. Right? After all, what you said came from Islam, which says that Allah is the One True God, not from a Pagan mythology.

And I feel like this has turned into the Religion and Mythology thread.

edited 29th Jan '14 11:03:23 AM by Quag15

^^ What's "unmanly" about it? It's a perfectly reasonable thing to do; to ask for assistance from someone who's in a better position than you are.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Point 2) was responding to your claim that Pagan gods were never human.

But you see the point of having saints in addition to God.

I'd say contradictory, not hypocritical, but essentially yes. Just voicing my opinion on how I think praying saints to pray for you is little different from asking a pagan god for something. I guess I just put too much emphasis on the golden calf and the laws forbidding idolatry and worshiping other gods and not enough on the difference between veneration and worship.

I'd ask directly yes. I also understand trying to get additional support. But if my mother was really insecure about her parenthood, to the point that she'd previously gone on a rant on how she's my mother, not her friend, I don't think trying to get said friends support would help.

I don't have a car and feel in no way emasculated by having to ask permission to use my parents car if i need to go somewhere not easily accessible by public transportation/walking/cycling. And agreed on the unnecessary.

edited 29th Jan '14 11:52:33 AM by Qeise

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.

Saints are not gods. Nor are they added to the worship list. The list is comprised solely of God.

edited 29th Jan '14 12:37:57 PM by Quag15

I feel it's un-valourous to ask for intercession because it assumes that God will give you a different treatment to what are objectively the same actions just because someone else put on a good word for you, rather than relying on God's own wisdom. Sort of like going for mommy to appease Daddy when you've done something wrong, rather than take responsibility for what you did and solve your own problems like a responsible individual. Like, it's a dodge, a copout. Taking advantage of a good person's credit. Someone who's already dead! Muslims too have the deal of praying for someone, but it's the living that pray for the dead, not the other way around. The logic might be that, if you were beloved enough that people spend time worrying about your salvation rather than their own, this must be the result of you earning that love with good deeds. I don't actually know.

But, yeah, adoring saints is, I think, a step down the slippery slope towards pseudo-idolatry and paganism-accomodation/assimilation, but it's still technically accepetable and in no way actual adulation.

Trinity, though, I've never understood. Or that transmogrification thing where you eat the flesh and blood of the saviour. Or the part where you being dropped in and out of water and saying that you converted made it automatically true.

Another thing I'd like to know about is Orders. How do they work? How do they get along? Franciscans, Carmelites, Malt Cross, Jesuits, Benedictines... I get confused.

edited 29th Jan '14 12:51:40 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

It's probably better to ask that in the Religion and Mythology thread. I could explain it, but it would warrant a long post and which could become a bit off-topic (if we haven't already gone that way).

Each Order has a set of practices and rules which were defined by themselves and accepted by the Holy See/Vatican (if I'm wrong about this point, someone correct me). As for how do they get along? Simple. Despite their rivalries, they managed to cooperate for the greater good that Christianity is supposed to work for. From there, let's just say that diplomacy and respect were established.

edited 29th Jan '14 1:09:44 PM by Quag15