Filum Romanum - A Thread for the Catholic Church

It's really obvious. But Christians compartmentalise, even the most fanatic fundamentalists do. To give you a very sad example, an ex-Mormon friend of mine told me how the Mormon community he grew up in got so competitive about who can be humble and charitable and generous, it warps right back into hubris, cruelty, and greed.

Holier Than Thou is a trope for a reason I guess.

IIRC, the entire country was partying in the streets for a bit. They were pleased in general, and Francis was/is pretty popular in his old stomping ground.

And what would happen if one of the following countries had a guy that became the Pope:

1. United Kingdom

2. Japan

3. Russia

I've seen that behaviour a few times here as well in the Catholic Church. False humility (and Holier Than Thou attitudes, as said above) is a noticeable problem, even if it's, for the most part, a subtle behaviour that not everyone picks up on.

UK: Mockery, derision, and/or Dawkins-style rage, complaints of 'filthy Papist infiltrator'. Japan: No idea, though it would be interesting to see a Pope coming from a minority Catholic community in a given country. Russia: 'Nyet, Orthodox Church is bestest church'.

(Needless to say, it would be interesting to see a Russian Pope, but I suspect some American Catholics would not be pleased - the same goes for some Russian Orthodox folks)

edited 9th Dec '16 11:14:22 AM by Quag15

All very possible. For numerous reasons, though, I think the Conclave's unlikely ever to elect a Pope who isn't from a majority-Catholic country.

Well, first of all the candidate needs to be a cardinal - and cardinals from countries with a Catholic minority tend to be rare because fewer Catholics means fewer priests that could rise up the ranks.

In regards to that, does every country with a Catholic community have a representative in the Vatican? Or it doesn't work like that?

Having a representative at the Vatican and a cardinal aren't inherently the same thing, but there are 228 cardinals currently, 120 of which are eligible to vote in papal elections.

148 cardinals are duplicates, so 80 different countries have at least one cardinal, there are 193 member states of the UN, so at least 113 UN nation states have no cardinals. Only 59 countries have cardinals that can vote, with 75 of those 120 cardinals coming from 14 countries and 25 of the 75 coming from Italy alone.

edited 12th Dec '16 8:53:03 PM by Silasw

Technically, any male Catholic can be elected. But the odds of them pulling a random non-priestly dude out of a hat are slim. The last serious non-priestly contender was a Holy Roman Emperor in the 1500s, I believe, who was trying to buy the election.

Anyway: Your Holiness, stop being so awesome, I'm liking you too much already!

A video about papal elections from 2013:

In a nutshell: To actually have a shot, you need to be an insider who has actually climbed the ladder all the way - which kinda makes sense, as you'd want somebody in the position who actually knows how things work.

edited 13th Dec '16 8:54:55 PM by DrunkenNordmann

The Grand Master of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (aka Knights of Malta) has resigned due to pressure of Pope Franics and the refusal of the Knights to cooperate in an investigation involving an issue between said former head and the Order's former health minister. As a result, he has a appointed a papal delegate to run the order.

This is generating some controversy, due to what may be a violation of canon law, as well as what technically constitutes as an annexation of one 'sovereign' country by another.

edited 25th Jan '17 2:40:57 PM by Quag15

It's a very roundabout story but in short the debate seems to be a man stopped humanitarian aids involving contraceptives and was forced to resign by the Order, Pope Francis wants to know why, Knights of Malta are saying "fuck off you're not the boss of me old man!" and Francis is saying "NOW DON'T MAKE ME SEND YOU TO BED WITHOUT SUPPER!".

Complex scenario.

EDIT: Actually got it wrong. It's even more roundabout than I expected.

edited 25th Jan '17 3:05:51 PM by Gaon

Theoretically, I suppose the SMOM has a right to refuse to recognize the Pope's authority. If they do, however, then they've said that they are not a part of the Church hierarchy.

I believe the term for that is "schism."

Thing is the Sovereign Order is a Sovereign entity under international law, so this is murky territory.

I didn't even know they were sovereign - always figured they and the other still-existing orders were still bound to the Holy See.

Goes right back to the Crusader states... as, they were states. :/ And, the Order predates any of those by about 200 years.

Think of them as originally very specialist caravan guards/ mercenaries hired at one remove to guard pilgrimages. Whose portfolio expanded and contracted over years, but whose independence never quite went away.

Yeah, but didn't the crusading orders still answer to the Pope in the end? That makes them autonomous, but not independent.

So I heard George HW Bush was a Knight of Malta and looked for info on them that wasn't from conspiracy sites. The result is interesting but disappointing, in a good way. They're still active militarily... as medics! And transporters!

They seem like a likeable bunch! But, until the 1990's, they wouldn't let you become a Knigt/Officer unless your family had been aristocrats for 300 years...

Strangely, no. Even occasionally disagreeing with a specific Pope and getting excommunicated are things that have happened. There is no actual chain of command connecting the Vatican to the Orders. It's more like... very weighty suggestions they usually take on advisement, but can fling back in the Pope 's face if they feel the cost of doing so to be worth it.

Even the Crusades weren't directly controlled from Rome. <points at the bad boy in class as the biggest example of No Control, the Fourth Crusade>

Paladins usually do have sticks up their rears, no?

edited 26th Jan '17 2:07:16 AM by Euodiachloris

From what I gather, that strongly aristocratic stance is Pope Francis's main beef with them.

Yup. Pope Francis likes their actions on the field. It's the aristocratic or post-aristocratic pompousness that he really dislikes (and it has been so since the days he worked and lived in his native Argentina).

Someone needs to start up the "Holy Order of the Grunts". The Pope would probably join.

edited 26th Jan '17 8:19:41 AM by DeMarquis

Just like how Jesus would have handled it.

edited 26th Jan '17 4:20:41 PM by Antiteilchen

To be fair, this practice probably harkens back to them being orders of knights - knights were usually of noble blood, with commoners filling up the lower ranks (basic infantry etc).

Doesn't mean they couldn't get rid of this.