Since we've gotten told to stop talking generally about religion twice in the Homosexuality and Religion thread and were told that, if we want to talk generally about religion, we need to make a new thread, I have made a new thread.
Full disclosure: I am an agnostic atheist and anti-theist, but I'm very interested in theology and religion.
Mod Edit: All right, there are a couple of ground rules here:
- This is not a thread for mindless bashing of religion or of atheism/agnosticism etc. All view points are welcome here. Let's have a civil debate.
- Religion is a volatile subject. Please don't post here if you can't manage a civil discussion with viewpoints you disagree with. There will be no tolerance for people who can't keep the tone light hearted.
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edited 9th Feb '14 1:01:31 PM by Madrugada
Even Apollo could be dangerous if angered as Marsyas found out the hard way.
One drunke boast about being a better musician than Apollo, and the next thing he find himself being skinned alive.
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Our Favorite Cowgirl, er, Mare
And he gave King Midas donkey ears that one time.
It was Rule of Symbolism according to Apolloβs perspective. There was a music contest going on, and Midas voted for his friend instead of Apollo. Apollo got very mad said βYou must have the ears of an ass to make such an unwise decision!β and he put the spell on him.
Edited by Demetrios on Apr 21st 2024 at 1:45:50 PM
I like to keep my audience riveted.
King of the Rhino Men
You'd think Midas would have learned that he specifically should avoid the Olympians, since it tends to end badly for his health, even when they're being genuinely grateful to him.
Although learning would imply that he realizes he should think things through before dealing with or saying something about them ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
As Chesterton said, "Our own countrymen, and the men of other countries, loved to claim like Virgil that their own nation was descended from the heroic Trojans. All sorts of people thought it the most superb sort of heraldry to claim to be descended from Hector. Nobody seems to have wanted to be descended from Achilles." Contrary to the dreary conventional wisdom, not everybody automatically prefers a winner to a loser.
Like reflections in the glass!
Even Snorri allegedly got in on the act, to the point where he claimed the Aesir were displaced trojans
Brenner's Wolves Fight Again
Both Achilles and Odysseus are still part of today's lexicon, aren't they? Achilles' Heel and Odyssey.
Where there's life, there's hope.
Like reflections in the glass!
yes, they are.
Herc too (Herclulean)
Brenner's Wolves Fight Again
Of course Heracles is the most popular Hero. He got a Disney film!
Where there's life, there's hope.
Our Favorite Cowgirl, er, Mare
And two great TV shows. 
One of which is a spinoff from the Disney movie. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Redmess
But if you ask the average person, would they be more likely to know about Odysseus or Achilles?
Optimism is a duty.
ππ©π―ππ°π
π‘π
Achilles had the loudest fanbase. As in Alexander the Pretty Decent At Conquest. And that guy inspired a fair bit of fans as well. Not the best of inspirations in the end.
Redmess
True, but Odysseus gets all the homages and TV shows and name drops.
Optimism is a duty.
ππ©π―ππ°π
π‘π
I imagine the more fantastical element of Odysseus's adventure kinda helps, as well as the longing for home. Plus people always loved the smarter "normal" pragmatic guy apparently lol.
Redmess
Odeysseus' name is also the byword for epic adventure.
Optimism is a duty.
Brenner's Wolves Fight Again
I think a factor is that Odysseus is the mastermind behind the most important event of the Trojan War and survive to star in the most famous sequel out of all the returning Heroes. Not even Aeneas comes close.
Meanwhile Achilles has to share screen time with Hector, Ajaxes, Paris, Agamemnon, Diomedes, etc.
That said I do think that when it comes to the Trojan War itself, people will think of Achilles and Hector the most.
Edited by RAlexa21th on Apr 21st 2024 at 7:22:58 AM
Where there's life, there's hope.
Redmess
Is there supposed to be a protagonist to the whole saga? The Odyssey seems to suggest that it is Odysseus. After all, he's got a whole book dedicated to his voyage home.
Optimism is a duty.
Brenner's Wolves Fight Again
The Trojan Cycle is more like an Ensemble Cast saga, with multiple books dedicated to different Heroes.
Odysseus isn't the only surviving Hero to have an entire book about him. His book is simply just more famous than the others.
Agamemnon has The Oresteia; Aeneas has The Aeneid. The Aeneid is particularly important for Rome.
Where there's life, there's hope.
Redmess
The Aeneid is a lot later than the Trojan saga. The Romans didn't even exist when that was written.
Optimism is a duty.
Brenner's Wolves Fight Again
The Trojan Cycle is written over a really long time frame and come from multiple unassociated authors. The "canon" is really just what scholars nowadays agree upon. I do consider The Aeneid part of the "canon."
The two works attibuted to Homer didn't cover the entire Cycle. The Iliad didn't even cover the cause of the war (it starts with Achilles and Agamemnon disputing over war spoils and ends with Hector's funeral), and the ending of the war is only briefly mentioned in the Odyssey.
Where there's life, there's hope.
To be honest, I consider theΒ The Aeneid relation to theΒ The Trojan War the same asΒ The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power toΒ Tolkien's Legendarium.
That is not to say that the Aeneid is bad; far from it, it just has a different tone and priorities than the Iliad.
Edited by jawal on Apr 21st 2024 at 6:52:09 PM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Mweheheh
Speaking of Tolkein, to what extent did orcs exist before him?
Peace is the only battle worth waging.
Like reflections in the glass!
accoridng to the other wiki
.
- Piney the Elder used the term for sea monsters
- Orlando Furioso used the term for a monster that made a Distressed Damsel of Angleica and alter a blind cannibalistic giant that made a Distressed Dude out ofKing Norandin
- The term is derived from a name for Pluto, Orcus, in case you were wondering why SMT had a pig-demon turn into a Hell Gate in strange journey :P
The first two did not resemble the being as we conceptualized it and the SMT SJ example obvious came after Tolkien, so its safe to assume that the modern Orc was Tolkien's invention that was later refined by Blizzard and various Japanese creatives (I'm assuming the Pig Man features were mainly sourced form the latter). Therefore the extent before then was as a word likely meant to evoke the underworld in some form per etymology
Edited by MorningStar1337 on Apr 21st 2024 at 10:59:35 AM
SMT?
Anyway, Achilles isn't depicted as a hero in the Illiad. It's a tragedy, and most of the tragedy is his fault.
Hector, by way of contrast, is an almost perfect white knight. That's why his death is supposed to be such a terrible thing.
Like reflections in the glass!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Shin Megami Tensei. One of two media franchises liable of being brought up in this thread a lot because it uses a lot of figures from mythology. (the other being Fate/)
Edited by MorningStar1337 on Apr 21st 2024 at 11:38:18 AM
The Olympians getting tricked or defeated (not always in battle mind you, sometimes just a contest of some sort) by demigods or legendary heroes is a fairly common motif in Classical Mythology.
Though that being said, usually the demigod/hero in question very wisely picked the right Olympian to take on, since it's already borderline a suicidal idea to piss off or challenge a deity, but there were a few you could get away with doing it.
Except Hades and Zeus, and there are plenty of stories about why pissing off Hades in particular was an extremely bad idea.
Chain an angry nature god at your own peril.