The General Religion, Mythology, and Theology Thread

Double Consciousness (actually triple) might apply in its limited way.

Honestly, though, the Trinity is a mindbendingly tough concept to get one's head around, and workaday Christians would often rather leave the details to theologians than risk erring on the side of oversimplification. For example, the Double Consciousness trope implies a kind of "either/or" distinction, when the truth is emphatically closer to "both/and/and also." It's a genuine paradox, as opposed to the mere contradiction in terms that we often mean by that word.

Chesterton had the Trinity in mind when he defined what a real mystery is, as opposed to falsely "mystic" notions:

Put the Trinity on display in the light for everyone to see, let the whole world examine it from every angle, and it still hurts the brain a bit. It's still just a tad more than any sound bite, or any trope, can encompass neatly.

edited 31st Jul '15 8:18:21 AM by Jhimmibhob

This reminds me of the mystery cults from ancient Rome.

which makes me think. Is Scientology a modern version of a mystery cult? Even though everyone knows its central mystery and that its all a big scam? I mean, when you analyze the intiation rituals in comparison to the ones Rome had, which are a big reason we dont know much about them besides what other people said

I'd say it's not entirely dissimilar, but it doesn't have the same public stories that the old mystery cults had. Though on the gripping hand with Christianity (for the most part being America and Europe) having becoming so very dominant there's not much space in the public consciousness for those same stories in the modern world. Especially when you're not presenting yourself as some variant of one of the Abrahamic faith.

It is a point to ponder.

I've never found the trinity all that mind-bending, to be honest.

If that is so, then do enlighten us please.

Since we are in the Gen Rel Thread, and not in the Filum Romanum, I'm gonna be perfectly blunt:

I suspect he just finds it dumb/absurd/meaningless. One a dem metaphorical truths that are a case of having your cake and eating it too. It's not mysterious, it just doesn't make sense. If you want mind-bending mysteries, that, once fully revealed and explained, are even more mind-bending, I've got some math and physics for ya. Non-euclidian geometry and probability wave functions are only the start of it!

Priests like making up stuff that doesn't make obvious sense, it makes them seem important, impressive, and necessary. Whether it makes non-obvious sense is facultative.

Of course, maybe I'm just saying Trinity can't be understood because I'm too dumb or spiritually-impaired to understand it, or maybe I'm being hasty out of intellectual laziness, I dunno. Take my words with a grain of salt.

edited 31st Jul '15 7:33:02 AM by TheHandle

I would have offered that it's a lot of metaphysical mumbo jumbo designed to conceal the fundamental implausibility of their theology by making it so confusing that people give up and take it on faith, but yours was far more eloquent.

Nah, it's just a question of timeshifted sequential amnesia.

Theological theories have as much sense as Taco Bell menus. You will not understand it, much less why you are eating it, but you will anyways.

Frankly, I really dont understand the Trinity either. But I dont presume that either I or the idea itself must be dumb. I dont understand much of art criticism either, but I dont think thats a negative reflection on myself or art critics. Some ideas are meant only for members of a certain community, and they wont make sense outside of that context.

Like riding crops vs floggers.

Or latex vs rubber.

What's so hard to understand though? When he incarnated as Jesus he wiped his own memory of being God, but since he exists outside of time that means there was now a version of him that remembered and a version of him that didn't. The same entity, but in two distinct states of being. Presumably the holy spirit was formed through a similar trick.

Although since the spirit is the power maybe it came first...

But that would mean they were no longer distinct after Jesus disincarnated.

Not necessarily. Maybe the loss of omniscience was permanent, and Jesus only knows what he wants to know or the Father feels he needs to. Functionally it's the same as omniscience but as an experience it leaves a lot more room for personality. It's hard to relate to a big blob of pure Truth.

You're sort of making the point here. There are dozens of ways to apprehend the idea mistakenly: Church history is full of simplified, relatively user-friendly takes such as Arianism, Nestorianism, etc., etc. It's the orthodox version that's perennially tough to keep in focus.

In addition, as you help to demonstrate, the idea has many puzzling implications that lead to important questions: how much of His own omnipotence, onmniscience, omni[fill in the blank] did Christ, as it were, "permit Himself" at any given time in His Earthly life, and in what sort of relations with the other Trinitarian Persons (as fully God as He)?

These aren't the sort of mysteries that you use to keep the rubes in line, because you're as likely to get tangled up in them as anyone else. Moreover, simplicity is an important selling point that you don't just eschew, unless you yourself think the truth is something other than simple. No, whether Athanasianism is correct or not, my guess is the Church has always been sincere about it; suggesting otherwise is too conspiratorial by half.

Sorry, Fighteer: perhaps I misinterpreted your usage of "designed to conceal."

edited 31st Jul '15 12:02:24 PM by Jhimmibhob

I never suggested that the Church was not sincere... believing in your own religion is a fairly important requirement. I'm certain there are insincere priests as there are phonies in any other profession, but that's not strictly relevant.

However, one's sincerity has little to do with the logic of what one believes in. It is possible to sincerely believe total garbage.

Point is, the trinity just isn't mind-breaking for me, because it's easy enough to hammer into a dozen different coherent shapes. There's some debate over which is correct, but not much in the way of evidence that the truth is some sort of confusing amalgam of all of them. You're just kind of insisting it has to be.

I also never found the Trinity hard to understand. I too don't see what's so hard to understand about it.

FYI, I used to believe in it, right now I'm in some kind of greay area ranging from both types of agnostic to "I don't think I really care anymore".

From my side, the only Trinity I can speak of wears latex and is good with computers.

Or very bad, depends on the way you see it.

OK, let me ask this in another way, since I've realized that asking my original question without understanding the thing I'm asking about is stupid.

First: What is the nature of the Trinity, insofar as most if not all common schools of Christian theology can agree between them on the answer? And what differentiates the Father, the Son, and the Spirit from each other?

Second: What are the most widely common interpretations of the Trinity's nature?

Third: What sets of tropes apply to each of the aforementioned common interpretations?

Four, and sorta-tangential: Are there any works of fiction in which the Trinity figures in tangibly, with major significance beyond mere verbal discussion?

edited 31st Jul '15 10:02:42 AM by MarqFJA

Christianity isnt the only religion where god manifests themself in more than one person or avatar. Hinduism has the trimurti

Actually that's a very good question. We very seldom see the Trinity as an actual set of characters in fiction. Is it for the sake of being inoffensively generic, or do the authors just not think about it?

I would say it also depends on the media. I mean, if you look at mainstream stuff, like Anime, or TV series, or Comics, they are from the U.S, where Catholic upbringings are not the majority.

So the Christianity is Catholic is in full play but more than that, this catholicism is based on assumptions and ignorance, so

Does the Spirit even count as a character? It doesn't have much personality.

It croons and has an obsession with olive branches? Maybe it's building a Nest of Peace and No More Drowning Humanity?