Women's Issues

There is also the fact of how hellish pregnacny and childbirth are in the first place, it may not even be the baby that is not wanted...

I guess it varies from women to women, my mother has fond memories of her pregnancy but then me and my two other siblings were planned babies and my late father was in good health at the time.

Inter arma enim silent leges

Yeah unwanted children at times are carried to term and then given up for adoption/adopted by a family member, but you've still got the issue of a women having to go though a full pregnancy, suffer any potential health complications from the pregnancy and the suffer the stress and mental pain of the entire thing.

Sure if your a well adjusted adult with money the pregnancy could be fine, but if you're a teenager whose boyfriend is about to leave, who has to work regularly to put food on her table and whose parents might make her homeless once all this comes out? Then carrying the baby to term and giving it up for adoption aren't realy an option.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

I tried telling her that, but then she said they already made the choice not to use birth control. Which of course is a dumb argument

Birth control is not always effective, infact over the avrage fertile period it is more likley it will fail then it wont.

Now that's not true Immy. Birth control is plenty effective.

It's not perfect though. And it's not always available.

Oh really when?

No that is true Garcon, if you look at the failure rates, and then apply statistics.

Typical Use Failure Rate for The Pill for instance is 9% per year.

Over say 20 years, you dont even need to use advanced math here.

If you want the math though, thats 85% chance you will get pregnant even on the pill.

edited 17th May '16 2:02:58 PM by Imca

Assuming you're getting laid every single day I guess.

But compared with other methods like charts, pull out and abstinence. Birth control pills and condoms reduce the pregnancy risks a lot.

Inter arma enim silent leges

Does that number include user error though? Because that's not a problem with the pill. Also what are the stats on other methods or combinations?

Not all women have that choice, birth control fails, even if they did make that choice they likely made it based on the idea that they could if push came to shove get an abortion, and finally so that if they did? People make silly non-other-harming choices all the time, we generally don't punish them by forcing them to spend 9 moths carrying a parasite.

edited 17th May '16 2:38:18 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Oh they do, but there not infaliable.

And no, that was typical use, avrage human sexual activity, avrage human predopsition to failure of proper use.

Yes it is actualy, if you forget to take it one day.... and yes it does.

As for other numbers, typical use failure for condoms is 18% which means over 20 years there is a 98% chance you will be pregers.

Hmmmm, any specific numbers you want?

Because there is this chart here, just remember that perfect use is a usless number, because no mater how higly you think of yourself, humans are falable.

edited 17th May '16 2:42:04 PM by Imca

I once watched a show where a married (and working) lady accidentally got pregnant with her husband. Against her husband's wishes, she goes for an abortion, believing she is not ready for children and should work to earn money for a bit longer. By law, she is required to watch a video about the precious life of the fetus. After watching the video, she changes her mind and keeps the baby.

I really doubt law-mandated barriers to abortion actually work in real life. But I also don't know the lives and issues of women who want abortions. Are there any studies of such women? Any attempts to actually understand these people at all, instead of jumping to BABY MURDER IS WRONG and setting up walls?

edited 17th May '16 9:20:29 PM by hellomoto

Honestly, the thing that sets a lot of people off over abortion is how they weren't exactly planned babies and the idea they could have been aborted is frightening for them. To the point where the most common argument I've seen against abortion is: "it's easy for you to talk long after you were born".

I am sure that the realization of the possibility of having been aborted scares the living shit out of a decent amount of people, to the point of denying the chance of life to another person being seen as an amoral choice because it could have been them.

Inter arma enim silent leges

I mean the people in this thread probably know enough/know enough people to give a rough insight into the logic behind why a women might get an abortion, the reasons aren't that complicated.

edited 17th May '16 9:46:26 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

I don't. IRL I'm surrounded by people who see such women as 'idiots who have unprotected sex with their boyfriends and then try to use the Baby Trap to get married, only to get abandoned by said boyfriends who disappear into thin air, and now they're left pregnant with the possibility of being a single mom '. I have no idea how much of the 'women who want abortion' population is of this type, if that isn't an outright inaccurate stereotype.

edited 18th May '16 12:31:58 AM by hellomoto

The people you're talking about are idiots (how do you spring the baby trap if you terminate the pregnancy?). The kind of idiots who advocate for abstinence-only sex-ed, then wonder at the rates of teen pregnancy.

Um. No. The vast majority of abortions aren't actually performed on teen women with no man in their life. Abortions within marriage when you're late twenties to fourties? Guess what: not uncommon.

Say you don't want two kids so close to each other because your body still isn't over the first, but the contraception failed? Or, you or your husband lost that job you were relying on and can't find one with a decent package? Or, six kids is asking a bit too much of your energy, time and finances? Or, you find out that the baby is highly likely to have a fatal or near-fatal birth defect? Or, you find out you're likely to develop permanent diabetes if you go through with the pregnancy...

And, the kicker: you get to your late forties, have (barely) got the kids to college, getting ready for the empty nest... You find out that the menopause you thought had started was actually a new arrival. When you thought the only panic in your future was how to survive on the pension. Now you have another college issue staring you in the face, if the baby is healthy, even... Or, if you manage to survive to see them get there.

edited 18th May '16 2:15:46 AM by Euodiachloris

You've enlightened me! I really thought a majority of abortions were the "woman with no man in her life" kind, but it turns out we often underestimate the effort, time, and money required to raise a child, as well as the health risks involved in pregnancy. I knew I must've been wrong somewhere, but I don't know what, since no one tells me otherwise!

edited 18th May '16 5:53:06 AM by hellomoto

A good friend of mine who was actually trying to get pregnant with her husband had to get an abortion because she had a tubal pregnancy. Trying to carry the baby to term as is would have killed mommy and baby and ruined her chances of having a living baby later. This baby was wanted, but having the abortion meant that she was able to have a healthy child two years later.

edited 18th May '16 7:08:15 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

From the right wing, there's about the same amount of trying to understand women seeking abortion as there is trying to understand gays. That is, just enough to try and figure out how to trick them into changing their mind without actually caring one iota about the person themselves. There's a dumb commercial for cable/DVR services, that includes a line about "reconsider having that second child" and having the 5-ish kid vanish with a pop, dropping a crayon to the floor. That is far more horrifying than the thought of being aborted.

And the protesters outside abortion clinics legitimately don't care why the woman is there. They would rather have a mom die from a tubal pregnancy than have an abortion.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Yeah the "no man in her life" crowd will exist but they'll be pretty young and small in numbers, even amongst young people you'll get couples who aren't ready (or don't want kids at all), couples or single women who are ready emotionally and do want a kid but simply don't have the money, women in any position who undergo a health complication and more.

Stories focused on women who don't have someone in their life to share the cost of a child with are going to most prevalent amongst the late teens-early twenties demographic, if that's your demographic then that's the kind of stories you are most likely to hear.

The "BABY MURDER" crowd can include people who do understand as well, you can end up with overly attached men who couldn't override a women's choice getting very annoyed about a women choosing to have an abortion.

edited 18th May '16 7:58:38 AM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Wait, so do people in the pro-life crowd actually think a woman should carry her pregnancy to term even if it might cause complications that could kill her?

Trust you? The only person I can trust is myself.

Yep, at least a strong number do, thus why for many of them the term "pro life" is a joke. That's before you get into the ones who bomb abortion clinics, killing not only women using them, the staff there but also 'killing' the fetus' that were going to be aborted (or considering that many places probably serve dual purpose as general women's health places, fetus' that would have been carried to term).

edited 18th May '16 10:27:14 AM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Yeah, I've been over this in a number of different threads; "be fruitful and multiply" is seen as a moral imperative. (It's a belief originally from the Middle Ages, when crude abortion methods first emerged and every single pregnancy was risky, so the idea of giving up a child now to go on to have children later did not really exist.)

edited 18th May '16 10:27:40 AM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

Yes. This extends beyond abortion, as well. Mom-in-law had her tubes tied after giving birth to my wife, because she was told that getting pregnant again would kill her. Pro-Life™ types from her church shunned their entire family into leaving, because they felt she should have gotten pregnant again and trusted in God to save her (or die, if that was His plan). They are also the types that think corporations shouldn't have to pay for birth control, even when it's prescribed to treat a medical condition and not just because the woman doesn't want to get pregnant.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

My BFF carried her baby to term when she was pregnant and gave him to an adoptive family. Her reason was because she's a paranoid schizophrenic; she was worried that she might one day have an episode and inadvertently cause emotional and/or physical harm to the child.

It was a nightmare of a procedure. The adoption process is horrendous.

Her sister, on the other hand, is being strongly urged to abort her pregnancy by just about everyone because of her very bad decision to remain with a man who physically abuses her, on the grounds that it sucks not having a father so her child should be raised with him. There's a lot of drama going around because she's trying to make the pregnancy be about her and how everyone should be supporting her, while everyone around her is instead freaking out about the wellbeing of the child.

There are a lot of reasons for why someone might abort, adopt, or keep a child.

...well, yes, when labor complications kill the mother it does tend to have a devastating impact on the possibility of another child.

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